Reloading Long Range Ammo

[ecn515]

Question for those of you that reload long range ammo. 

What brass are you using? Are you headstamp sorting? More specifically if you are using LC brass are you sorting by the year?

I'm currently reloading all my long range ammo into Federal casings (FC) with very good results. With Varget I'm seeing about a 7 FPS SD. Unfortunately my supply of Federal cases is dwindling. I've heard that most people prefer to load into LC brass, but if so are you concerned with matching years as well? I have a large pile of LC brass but it is all of mixed years, just curious if I am to go down that path if I should be trying to sort out all my cases by year or just treat all LC cases as the same. 

[synchronicity]

I am currently shooting CBC and loading IVI while prepping RUAG for 50 BMG.

[12glocks]

Thats a pretty low SD.  I am curious is that like 24 grains of Varget under a 75 or 77 grain bullet and how are you charging your propellant?  Are you using bushing of FL dies?  I too know that a lot of guys like LC brass and sort by year.  Sorry to take your thread off kilter, my SD is 18 right now with 8208.

[ecn515]

You kinda hit the nail on the head, 24gr's of Varget with a 77gr Sierra TMK over top. 

I'm charging with a Hornady powder drop with a micrometer adjuster, it's surprisingly accurate especially considering it's a stick powder like Varget. 

I'm sizing/trimming with a Dillon 1500. 

[bluegrasspicker]

Since you asked, ecn515, my "precision" (I use that lightly, it's not like my bolt rifle precision) is mostly on LC brass that is sorted by year.  I have no empirical evidence to support that practice.  It's just what the guy who taught me ~15 years ago said to do, and I did it so much that there's still brass left over.

 

For long range precision in a bolt action I'm more deliberate, but that's not the topic of this thread. 

 

Reloading is always a bang-for-your-buck trade off.

 

My recent ah ha outcome is that I'm switching from Varget to IMR 8208 for progressive loading.  I believe that will have as much of an effect as the volume differences in same-manufacturer brass for bulk reloading.

 

Enjoy,

Bob

 

 

 

 

[ecn515]

Since you brought it up, and mentioned having experience with Varget, how does 8208 compare as far as burn rate and what not? 

 

Ideally I'd like to be using less case capacity and maintain the same velocity (my load lines up killer with my scope) and I can't find much info on 8208. 

 

Also, this isn't the first time 8208 has been suggested. 

[12glocks]

11 hours ago, ecn515 said:

Since you brought it up, and mentioned having experience with Varget, how does 8208 compare as far as burn rate and what not? 

 

Ideally I'd like to be using less case capacity and maintain the same velocity (my load lines up killer with my scope) and I can't find much info on 8208. 

 

Also, this isn't the first time 8208 has been suggested. 

I have not tried Varget in 223/5.56 but I am considering it.  I have tried it on 308.  I had primarily used ball propellants CFE 223, TAC, and 748 prior and have had the best accuracy wise in the order listed.  I had noticed significant velocity changes in cold weather so I switched to 8208.  8208 is a little faster than Varget as I recall, closer to 4895.  With 23.2 of 8208 CCI 400 Sierra 77 SMK out of an 18" 416R stainless tube I get 2688 MV, SD 14, ES 57 (number of shots 13).  The TMK are close to that also and are more accurate for me.  That is published data on the IMR Hodgdon website showing 55,000 PSI with that load.  I was using 22.9 of 8208 with a Hornady 75 Gr HPBT but after quite a bit of testing I am going up to 23.4 of 8208 with the Hornady 75 HPBT for 3 gun.  The 23.4 goes 2635 MV SD 19 ES 77 out of a 16" Stainless tube.  I have not made it to the range to chrono this load out of a 18" tube but I do know it is solid .5-.7 moa in 3 of my AR's (all are 3 gun rifles).  The bearing surface of the Hornady 75 HPBT is shorter than the Sierra offerings but expect velocity comparable of higher with the 73 gr ELDM, 22.9 of 8208 with the ELDM the MV was 2655 SD 16 out an 18" tube.  I am not using a powder dispenser but I just bought one so I am hoping to lower my SD's.  The 77 TMK has worked great in all my testing and I plan to use that if and when I shoot a true long range gas gun match (coming soon I hope).  I see no reason to abandon the Hornady 75 gr HPBT for 3 gun, it works great and is half the price.  May I recommend the new Lyman reloading book for Long Range Precision.  It's about $13 and has great 223 data, they do use a 223 chamber for their load development but take most loads up to 55,000 PSI, and thus, the max loads are appreciably higher than a lot of manuals I own.  The last 2 Hornady manuals have 8208 in the load data as well.  Hopefully that give you an idea of real world velocities though I do want to point out those velocities were obtained about 2000 feel elevation.  Lastly, when I loaded with ball propellants my SD's are much higher even though the thrown powder charges were invariably perfect out of a Dillon measure on a Redding beam scale.  I getting .1 grain variation high or low with thrown charges out of the Dillon measure BUT the SD's are lower than with ball propellant!  Some of the load data I have listed is above published max's (.1-.2)so all the standard warnings apply  

 

I too trim with the Dillon 1500.  After that I run the Dillon carbide expander ball through the neck with the die turned out 2 full turns on my loading tool head.  Are you doing anything with the necks on your cases after power trimming or are you annealing, chamfering, loading as it comes out of the trimmer?

 

Hope this helps!

[ecn515]

I've been using the Sierra 77gr TMK's for a while now and will continue to until they run out as I have gotten them all for free to date. Before that I was using Hornady 75gr BTHP Match with Varget as well and had really good luck with them too. The ELDx came out after I was already using the TMK's but eventually when it comes time for me to actually pay for bullets again I'd like to give those a try too. 

One of my reasons for this line of inquiry is that with the charge of Varget I'm using (24gr) it is being heavily compressed which causes some deformation of the bullets by the seating stem. I love the loading and the velocity/accuracy I'm seeing so it's not the hugest of deals but I'd prefer it not to happen. Sierra actually addressed this issue and suggested modification to the seating stem, which I tried and really didn't see any difference. So I either need to go to another powder that has a lower case volume or start trying new dies if I want to correct this minor nagging issue. 

As of now I am chamfering my cases on a Hornady case prep trio after the size/trim on the 1500. This takes alot of time and I'm considering trying out an M die or something similar as I have my first station open currently anyway. If I don't chamfer the mouths of the cases can scrape some of the jacketing off of the bullets upon seating them even with various BT's I tried. 

[12glocks]

I was getting "donuts" on my projectiles using standard seating dies.  Switching to a Forster bench rest seating die cured that for me.  I can tell your knowledgeable so I am guessing you already went there.  I am also guessing you tried a long drop tube style funnel insofar as it is practical on a loading toolhead.  I don't know what time constraints you have, and I just throw this out there to throw it out there, but the electric tooth brush trick to compress the powder (saw it on the 6.5 guys channel).  The case density will be lower with 8208 I believe.  I think its an amazing propellant, super accurate, temp stable, meters well etc.  I believe you will be well overpressure before you run out of case volume.

 

If i may ask what type of velocities are you getting from 24 grains of Varget out of what length barrel? 

 

 

[ecn515]

Time isn't a massive issue for me, I might have to try that. With my 16'' Proof barreled gun (my primary comp rifle at the moment) I'm getting 2457 FPS at the muzzle with the aforementioned 77gr TMK and 24gr Varget as measured by my Lab Radar Chrono. It just works out that with a 50yd zero that lines up almost perfectly with my 1-6x Trijicon Accupoint. Stadia lines hit at 289, 411, 512, and 600yds according to Strelok and confirmed with all my shooting, lots of first round impact out to 600. I've been so lucky with that loading of Varget which is why I'm hesitant to switch powders. I'm sure I could get another powder to hit the same velocity, it's just a lot of work to make all the test rounds, check them, then go back and forth from the bench to the range until I get it right. 

 

I haven't checked it in my 18'' Seekins barrel as I haven't shot that gun in a while or in my 14.5'' JP barrel because I primarily use that for bay matches and it just has a dot on it, but one of these days I'll get around to it. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by ecn515

[bluegrasspicker]

My motivation for switching to Varget for 223 77 grain bullets is the metering that 12glocks mentioned .  I load 223 on a progressive press.  I don't like to call it a precision load for that reason.  I'm going for "best-bang-for-the-buck precision."  I've had Varget stack up and spill on the progressive.  It makes a mess, isn't safe, but most importantly it makes for inaccurate ammo!  Since I only chose Varget originally because it would cover a lot of bases very well while not being sensitive to temp changes, it's time to switch for progressive use.  

 

The second reason was that it's temperature stable.  If I'm going to spend time doing load development I want it year 'round.  The third is that it seemed similar to Varget in what it's good for.

 

With all that said, I'm sticking with Varget for 7mm08 and 308 on a single-stage press.  I love the stuff, it just doesn't meter well.

 

Since you're info gathering, ecn, my Varget load for 77 grain MK was north of 24 grains (on the upper end of published loads, but with a longer oal than published) without a crunch in LC brass.

[12glocks]

2457 is a little slower than I would care for but I know it would work.  Out of a 16" barrel 22.9 of 8208 had a MV of 2446 SD 12 with a Hornady 75 gr HPBT, the Sierra 77 would be faster of course, MV 2639 (out of an 18" barrel) for me.  That is an accurate load and well within a big node for me if you want to try it.  That is .1 over max in the last Hornady manual but that same load with 73 gr ELD had a MV of 2567.  As I said it was pretty much accurate all the way up in my testing so I think you can match your existing velocity if you wish to try it.

[lwink]

Kind of a stray from the recent posts, but back to the first ? In the op I've used Lapua brass for everything. Started that way on my first long range gun and have used it for everything since. 

Very consistent and durable and outside of price have no complaints or reason to change. 

If I wasn't picking all my brass up sure my answer would be different though! 

[bushmeat]

ECN515, to your original query, I have found LC brass varies quite significantly. Since you stipulate long range ammo, I'm assuming you're loading close to max. Given that you're using 77TMKs which are pretty long, I would suggest you sort the LC brass as your mentor taught you. I have found PMC Bronze cases to be quite consistent.

It is easy to get accurate loads with 8208 but it can be quirky at max pressures.

The donut you mention can be fixed by chucking a TMK into a drill, putting some grinding compound on the nose and running it into your seating stem.

[LSnSC]

For long range 3 gun ammo, I load a 69 TMK over 24.6 gr of TAC in LC  brass with a Winchester primer.  I buy processed brass, and the guy doing it sorts by year.  I'm getting 2800 FPS out of an 18" 1-8 twist Nordic barrel. That speed lines up with the BDC in my scope and the load is more than accurate enough for anything I've encountered in 3 gun.