Should "real" Holsters Be Required For Multi-gun?

[Overkill]

After a couple 3-gun matchs I noticed that whenever there is a pistol/longarm multi stage the pistol is always staged somewhere, unloaded, down course where the transistion occurs. I asked, "why dont we just load and holster the pistol before the buzzer, then when we get to the transition spot you can just ditch the longarm and draw the pistol?" After all the transition from longarm to sidearm is an eminently practical skill.

I was told that the reason this is not done is that the open class holsters are not secure enough. They dont want to risk having people knocling their loaded pistol out of the holster or getting it banged around while running and working with the longarm.

Havent we strayed too far from the founding principal of practicality if we allow people to compete with holsters that dont accomplish the two things that are a holster's raison d'etre (protecting and retaining your sidearm)? I'm not suggesting that we all wear thumb snap IWB's, or a return to holster tests, or a silly approved holster list like IDPA uses. However, I think a rule that simply states that holsters used at a 3-gun match should be sufficiently secure and protective of the pistol to permit a loaded pistol to be safely worn during all conditions encountered during the stage. A simple rule like that would give stage designers more freedom to design realistic and safe multi stages without cramping the open nature of open class. It just doesnt seem to be too much to ask that folks use a holster that is safe to transport a loaded gun.

[kellyn]

Excellent Post!

[Caspian_45]

Just a "what if".

You have a loaded pistol in the holster and you, for some reason, go prone. Now there is a loaded rosco pointed at those of us behind you.

Or maybe it's just safer. Me, I don't like guns pointed at me. Loaded or not.

[hopalong]

Caspian45,

If you are shooting a USPSA match you get a free trip home, Breaking the 180...

for those who will disagree go to the USPSA website and get on the NROI rules forum, they talk about that and make a difinitive ruling.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but for now that is just the way it is.

Hopalong

and I too don't particularly care to look down a muzzle, Loaded or unloaded !!

[Caspian_45]

Exactly correct Hop.

[Wakal]

We had a couple of stages at the Texas State 3-Gun this year (and the last few years, come to think of it)...and SMM3G did, on further reflection...that had a holstered pistol "hot" whilst wacking away at various targets with a long gun.

I, speaking with my 3-Gun MD, stage designer, and CRO hat(s) on, don't have a problem with a holstered (hot) gun. If your holster won't hold your gun during vigorous movement, THEN GET A BETTER HOLSTER. (rant mode/on) These popular (?) CRSpeed holsters (to pick the most obvious example) and their silly little aftermarket "walkabout" straps...if you are SO unconfident in YOUR holster's ability to retain your gun that you have to tie a STRING around your holstered pistol...GET A BETTER HOLSTER! (rant mode/off).

I miss the "retention" tests, although I would probably throw up if forced to do a somersault (would that be a procedural for "failing to retain lunch?").

Anyway, to try and get back on topic...I like being able to transition to a sidearm. That is one of the neat rules (IMO) at the Cav Arms match...their "if your long gun breaks, you may use your pistol" rule. Mmm...tacticool...

Alex

PS In the interest of full disclosure, I use a Limcat

AW

[warpspeed]

To answer the question, No.

[Sterling White]

However, I think a rule that simply states that holsters used at a 3-gun match should be sufficiently secure and protective of the pistol to permit a loaded pistol to be safely worn during all conditions encountered during the stage

For the past year I've focused training efforts on 3 gunning. During that time I have used 2 pistol holsters, the ult. ghost in 6 local matches/2 majors and a tek-lok in 7 local matches /1 major match. Anytime a hot pistol is going back into or being carried in the holster there is a level of risk associatted with movement regardless. Based on experience my prefereence favors the tek-lok for the following reasons: 1) positive retention without having to engage a lock mechanism, i.e. reholster and engaging the lock on the ghost takes appx. .5-1.0 seconds longer, 2) looking the gun into the tek-lok holster is safer than setting the gun on the platform of the ghost, 3) my draw time was maybe .1-.2 seconds slower with the tek-lok - not enough to outway any risk.

Will the ghost work - yes

Will the tek-lok work - yes

Should there be a rule - no

Should common sense be applied - most definately!

I used the tek-lok at the mgm ironman for the reason above. There are numerous opportunities to reholster, draw, and resholster. Economy of time while minimizing risk becomes an important factor.

[Overkill]

Just a "what if".

You have a loaded pistol in the holster and you, for some reason, go prone. Now there is a loaded rosco pointed at those of us behind you.

Or maybe it's just safer. Me, I don't like guns pointed at me. Loaded or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, In the real world a holstered gun is a safe gun. That of course assumes a real holster is employed. Nobody likes a gun pointed at them, but the fact of the matter is that everybody that CCW's with a horizontal sholder rig covers everybody behind them. The guy with the pocket rig covers anybody who's in front of him when he's sitting. The guy with the belt gun covers anybody on the first floor. I dont feel I put my kids at risk when they walk across the living room while I recline in the lazy-boy; my holster is safe and my gun is mechanically sound. The fact that a person could feel threatened by a holstered gun at an IPSC match doesnt speak very favorably of the safet of the guns and holsters that show up at our matches.

Besides, saying no "hot holstered" puts a lot more restrictions on match design than "no hot holstered and prone".

Its just not that big a burden to say that shooters have to use a holster that will reliably retain their gun.

THEN GET A BETTER HOLSTER. (rant mode/on) These popular (?) CRSpeed holsters (to pick the most obvious example) and their silly little aftermarket "walkabout" straps...if you are SO unconfident in YOUR holster's ability to retain your gun that you have to tie a STRING around your holstered pistol...GET A BETTER HOLSTER! (rant mode/off).

Agree 100%. Same for the bag and unbag at every stage croud. A holster should be more than a belt mounted shelf to set your pistol on for the 10 seconds between the load and make ready command and the buzzer.

[MikeFoley]

OK, I have to agree too. For USPSA pistol matches, I use a Limcat, and it is 100% safe, but when I multigun, or have to do any crawling, climbing, etc. I use a Bladetech kydex offset drop holster. BTW, there is almost no difference in draw time switching to kydex from a race holster. Multigun, tactical, recon, etc. is the most fun you can have in the shooting sports, but retaining your gun through all types of activities is paramount. I don't care for the bag and unbag at every stage either, it seems kind of silly, and can slow down the flow of the match a little.

[Larry White]

For several years I used a Garcia Extreme for pistol matches and trusted it 100% but always used a Bladetech for multi gun. At the Doubletap match I bent over to set a popper and my pistol hit the ground. Been the bladetech everwhere since. Just not that much(if any) slower------Larry

[SinistralRifleman]

Typically for 3 gunning I use a Safariland holster with roto-hood. It's maybe marginally slower than a standard kydex holster...but I never worry about my gun falling out....climbing, running, or crawling.

Here's the rules we came up with for our match regarding this issue:

1.5.4 The Cavalry Arms 3 Gun Match Allows for Hot Handguns during the course of fire.  If a shooter’s primary firearm becomes inoperable, they may transition to their sidearm, after clearing the primary long gun, and putting it on safe.  The shooter must inform the Range Officer they are transitioning, by yelling “TRANSITION”, the Range Officer will give the command that it is safe to transition by yelling “YOU ARE CLEAR TO TRANSITION”.  Transitioning to gain an unfair competitive advantage, will be deemed unsportsmanlike conduct and incur a 60 second penalty.

1.5.5 Due to the physically active nature of this match, holsters must be of practical carry type, duty use, or field serviceable. Holsters must either have a passive retention method (tension on the holster itself, such as Uncle Mike’s, Fobus, or Bladetech kydex holsters) or an active retention method (thumb break, flap, or rotating hood).  Holsters with active retention devices, must have the retention device activated whenever the pistol is holstered.

1.5.6 Due to safety concerns with re-holstering hot pistols, the use of “race gun” type holsters is prohibited.  Race gun holsters include, but are not limited to, CR Speed, Ghost Holster, or Hogue.  Range Officers and the Match Director will have the final say in regards to the suitability of any holster for use in this match.

1.5.7 No shoulder holsters, or cross draw holsters allowed due to safety concerns

http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/3gunrules.html

[sargenv]

When I shoot 3-gun, I generally use a Fobus for a 1911 style pistol. I like it because it goes onto and comes off of a safariland belt quickly when I want to swap out shotshell speed loaders and safariland split mag holders that do well to hold my Mini-14 mags. It holds the gun securely enough when fully locked and is fast enough if I need to draw from it. I always wondered about this myself. If the shooter is staying vertical, why not have a holstered hot pistol? The lock downs even on CR-speed's and Limcats are good enough that if you try to draw when locked, you generally give yourself a wedgie

Vince

[EricW]

If common sense ruled, people wouldn't be showing up to 3/multi gun matches with insecure race holsters. Unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, common sense isn't the order of the day for a few shooters. At the IE 3 gun last year we had race guns falling out all the hell over the place.

Obviously, a match DQ and losing out on the prize table don't seem to be a substantial disincentive to unsafe rigs. If we aren't going to have a rule, maybe we can triple the match fee. I hate new rules, but it's time to get a few people's attention.

[SinistralRifleman]

If common sense ruled, people wouldn't be showing up to 3/multi gun matches with insecure race holsters.  Unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, common sense isn't the order of the day for a few shooters.  At the IE 3 gun last year we had race guns falling out all the hell over the place. 

Obviously, a match DQ and losing out on the prize table don't seem to be a substantial disincentive to unsafe rigs.  If we aren't going to have a rule, maybe we can triple the match fee.  I hate new rules, but it's time to get a few people's attention.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've seen a few people get DQ'ed several times using the same holster...as the saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...

[Garrett]

If your holster won't hold your gun during vigorous movement, THEN GET A BETTER HOLSTER.  (rant mode/on) These popular (?) CRSpeed holsters (to pick the most obvious example) and their silly little aftermarket "walkabout" straps...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got tired of using my sissy strap and did just what you suggest. I started hunting for a better holster. I ended up with, ahem, a CR speed holster.

It holds the gun securely when I need it to, and locks it positively when I really need it to.

If anyone wants to suggest a "practical carry" holster for a .38 Super racegun, I'm all ears.

As far as mulit-gun matches, I've been to some where the pistol was to have an empty chamber until you ditch the long gun and draw. (the stages were set up for long gun first, and finish with the pistol)

[kellyn]

While I'm certainly not against open class, I really like the matches where open class pistol rigs won't cut it - such as North American Tactical. I think that is a big reason why Kyle does not even have an open class. He would have to REALLY tone down his stages. As that match has been run, everyone is open class would probably be DQ'd for pistols leaving their holsters. And if they didn't, they'd be full of mud or hung up on some prop.

Let's face it, allowing an open class with its attendent pistol holsters diminshes the physicality of stages, probably more so than any other factor. You cannot safely and effectively crawl under wires, climb ropes, enter and exit vehicles, jump walls, slither in mud, and run through brush with an open class rig on.

[Wakal]

BTW, there are three local shooters with BladeTech DOH holsters that hold...race guns. Oh, one of the three cheated (he uses a STI with a Doctor, so he can use a "stock" holster), but the other two just fired up the heat gun and the Drimel

I really like Safariland 6004 (drop rigs with the rotating hood, like Russell mentioned earlier), and wear one when I'm armed but not in soft clothes. Did you know that a Glock 17/22 size 6004 (with a bit of Drimel work) will hold a STI?

Anyway...if a competitor's gun falls out of their holster, that should be game over (go home). But if the holster holds the gun securely, have fun. And if a match designer doesn't want 'race holsters,' advertise the prone stages

Alex

[MikeFoley]

Did you know that a Glock 17/22 size 6004 (with a bit of Drimel work) will hold a STI? 

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tell us more about this please.

[Larry White]

I was haveing a hard time finding a paddle I liked for my commander sized SVI. Found one for a Glock 17 that fits it like a glove-----Larry

[Wakal]

What Larry said. A Commander STI will fit a G17/22 holster. A 5" STI will fit a Glock Kydex holster if you take out the bit of taper at the bottom (the bit that wraps around the front of the slide). I'd assume that a G34/35 holster wouldn't have that problem

The problem I had with the 6004 and my 5" STI was that the sides of the holster (behind the hood) were hitting the safety, and I could push the gun into the holster enough to take the safety off. So I cut the sides of holster back a little, and bent the bottom a bit...now I have a 6004 that fits my 9mm Hornet

Alex

[Sterling White]

My tek-loc was designed for a G34 but the STI w/ full length dust cover fits.

Small application of heat to the right places. A hack-fuism...LOL!

[George]

Even though I shoot in open, I believe in a secure holster PERIOD. I miss the idea that stages could/would involve a holster test. If the stage designers would just do what they want and the match directors would do what was right when hardware hits the ground, this would sort itself out pretty soon and the foofoo pistol shelfs would stay at home when the long guns come out to play ;-)

--

Regards

[Overkill]

If the stage designers would just do what they want and the match directors would do what was right when hardware hits the ground, this would sort itself out pretty soon and the foofoo pistol shelfs would stay at home when the long guns come out to play ;-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but in the mean time loaded pistols would be hitting the gravel (bad), and shooters would be grabing at loaded falling pistols to save them from the gravel (worse). Seems like it would be safer and more wise to modify the rules to clarify the inappropriate nature of bleeding edge open holsters in multi-gun. Whether that means a holster test, a rule giving MD authority to bar holsters, some sort of technical description, or a simple statement of principal is not for me to say. I'm sure there's somebody at NROI who figure out how to do it right.

I suppose the question is, how do you get the ball rolling with people that make the rules?

[Wakal]

Seems like it would be safer and more wise to modify the rules to clarify the inappropriate nature of bleeding edge open holsters in multi-gun

Punish innocent equipment that has done nothing wrong? We ain't IDPA, Chester

Punish the shooter who can't control his own gear

Alex