Classifyers

[dgsmith]

If you have a stage where there are 8 paper targets. 2 sets of 4 and you have a mand. reload between first array and second. Can I shoot 2,2,1,1 reload second array 2,2,2 reload 2 then back up to first array to finish 1,1.

Does that sound legal to you guys.

[Patrick Sweeney]

It depends entirely on the wording of the stage in question. If the stage description says "Fire two rounds on T1-TX, perform a mandatory reload, and fire two rounds each on TY-TZ," you have to do it that way. If it says "engage T1-TX, perform a mandatory reload, and engage TY-TZ," then you could do it your way.

It doesn't matter, as we are hosed on some classifiers no matter hwo we try to arrange them.

[Waltermitty]

At the RO class I took in March as a refresher and update to the new rule book I asked this question. The response from Troy Mc was no.

I have confirmed this at a number of other places. Without seeing the walkthrough for this particular stage, the requirement is usually a mandatory reload between arrays. That rule applies both directions.

There are a significant number of these 7-8 shot reload classifiers in the new book. As near as I can determine we're just hosed. Since 99.99% of the shooters don't care, I don't expect relief any time soon.

[COF]

Considering that it wouldn't be that difficult to make the classifiers revolver neutral, at times it seems as if they choose these designs just to spite wheelgunners

[Jerry V]

I just dealt with this with the 03-06 Barrel of Fun Classifier. Engage 4 IPSC perform mandatory reload, reengage. For the wheelgunner it means 3 reloads, not 1 like everyone else. I still don't think there's a bias against revolvers, just a indifference

[Flexmoney]

I still don't think there's a bias against revolvers, just a indifference 

I agree.

I'd suggest that you revolver shooters get in on our classifier design experiment that we have going on the forum.

[revchuck]

Flexmoney wrote:

I'd suggest that you revolver shooters get in on our classifier design experiment that we have going on the forum.

Flex - Where?

[hearthco]

Im kind of curious as to why it matters. You are not competing with anyone except other revo shooters. Everybody shooting revos do the same number of re-loads so what difference does it make? Dave Hearth

[Jerry V]

Dave,

I quess it depends how the scores are posted. All matches I've been to so far have combined overall & stage scores and a division breakdown of final scores. So with this type of score posting, you are compared with all of the divisions. My comment wasn't based just on classifiers, but stages in general. But since I'm usually the only revolver shooter, I don't expect any special consideration, I just deal with it and have fun

After all it is just a game, right

[Carmoney]

Dave: If that is actually true, then it doesn't really matter.

BUT, if you check out the discussion on 03-06 "Barrel of Fun" over on the classifier forum, you'll see that a bunch of guys from one club sent in results from a special classifier match where they very clearly shot this stage contrary to the stage instructions. They clearly did not "engage T1-T4 with two rounds each" before doing the mandatory reload and switching arrays. Furthermore, the RM reportedly got advice from HQ that this was okay, so it's not the shooters' fault they did it wrong. But the classifiers are definitely not being consistently administered on stages like this, and the integrity of the classification system thus suffers.

OK--no real big deal, right? EXCEPT that 03-06 just happens to be one of the stages at the Area 3 Championships this weekend, and the revolver shooters are all uncertain of which interpretation we'll be using! I just hope the ROs figure out something and keep it consistent for everyone, because it will probably be a tight race in Revo.

Mike

[JohnRodriguez]

Im kind of curious as to why it matters. You are not competing with anyone except other revo shooters. Everybody shooting revos do the same number of re-loads so what difference does it make? Dave Hearth

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave it would matter if we only competed with other revolver shooters, but the revolver classifiers are based on the limited classifer. Namely that the 100% classifer in revo is only a 80% in limited.

[Flexmoney]

Flexmoney wrote:

I'd suggest that you revolver shooters get in on our classifier design experiment that we have going on the forum.

Flex - Where?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Up in the "Stage Comments and Questions" forum at the top of the main page.

Here is the thread that gives the general idea (note, this is just us, not a USPSA mandated thing): http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24428

[Jerry V]

Dave:  If that is actually true, then it doesn't really matter.

BUT, if you check out the discussion on 03-06 "Barrel of Fun" over on the classifier forum, you'll see that a bunch of guys from one club sent in results from a special classifier match where they very clearly shot this stage contrary to the stage instructions.  They clearly did not "engage T1-T4 with two rounds each" before doing the mandatory reload and switching arrays.  Furthermore, the RM reportedly got advice from HQ that this was okay, so it's not the shooters' fault they did it wrong.  But the classifiers are definitely not being consistently administered on stages like this, and the integrity of the classification system thus suffers. 

OK--no real big deal, right?  EXCEPT that 03-06 just happens to be one of the stages at the Area 3 Championships this weekend, and the revolver shooters are all uncertain of which interpretation we'll be using!  I just hope the ROs figure out something and keep it consistent for everyone, because it will probably be a tight race in Revo. 

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mike,

That's too bad, it's not a good design, not just because of the reloads but also because of how close the box is to the barrel. There are those who may not have problem, but at 6'2" I had a hard time keeping my feet/knees in the box while shooting and reloading in the barrel. I smacked my knee on the metal frame of the box while going to my knees - good thing it was my last stage of the match, it swelled up a bit.

Hope it works out for you -- Jerry

[Carmoney]

Jerry,

Ahh, it'll work out OK, I'm not gonna get too uptight about it. I'm shooting Sunday, so I'll just ask the RO what the other wheelmen are doing on the stage and do likewise.

Sam and I are sure looking forward to a fun weekend and our very first bona fide area championship!!

Mike

[robomanusa]

Im kind of curious as to why it matters. You are not competing with anyone except other revo shooters. Everybody shooting revos do the same number of re-loads so what difference does it make? Dave Hearth

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im with Hearthco here, what's the diference revo shooters are shooting against other revo shooters

was also mentioned about clubs just posting combined results, hmm, it's very easy to hit just one more button to get results for all divisions....why they don't I have no clue?

Im kind of curious as to why it matters. You are not competing with anyone except other revo shooters. Everybody shooting revos do the same number of re-loads so what difference does it make? Dave Hearth

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave it would matter if we only competed with other revolver shooters, but the revolver classifiers are based on the limited classifer. Namely that the 100% classifer in revo is only a 80% in limited.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

revo classifiers are not calculated 80% of limited hhf's, there have been enough of the classifiers shot for revo to have there own set of hhf's

[revchuck]

revo classifiers are not calculated 80% of limited hhf's, there have been enough of the classifiers shot for revo to have there own set of hhf's

Nick - There may well be enough classifiers shot with revolvers to use them to classify round guns, but the conventional wisdom - and maybe the story from USPSA HQ - is that they aren't. The percentage I've read is 85% of the Limited scores. I wish I could give you a source, but I can't.

[cliffwalsh]

I think the fact that Jerry has only one 100% score shows that the revo classifiers are not based on revo hit factors.

[robomanusa]

revo classifiers are not calculated 80% of limited hhf's, there have been enough of the classifiers shot for revo to have there own set of hhf's

Nick - There may well be enough classifiers shot with revolvers to use them to classify round guns, but the conventional wisdom - and maybe the story from USPSA HQ - is that they aren't. The percentage I've read is 85% of the Limited scores. I wish I could give you a source, but I can't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Im not sure how sedro come about getting the numbers, but I can say that there not 80-85% of limited divisions as the numbers just dont dont add up.....and Ive added up MANY, LOL

I have compiled probably one of the most acurate HHF lists out there i'm sure, since I get very few emails from mistakes or numbers not adding up correctly when folks use my classifier percentage calculator. I do however tend to make typos from time to time, so if you find a mistake while using it please let me know and I will correct it.

[LPatterson]

Jerry,

Ahh, it'll work out OK, I'm not gonna get too uptight about it.  I'm shooting Sunday, so I'll just ask the RO what the other wheelmen are doing on the stage and do likewise. 

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the RO is telling you how other shooters are shooting the stage then he is doing a dis-service to all the other shooters who don't ask. It may be a local match but it is still wrong. If you come to a stage that I am an RO on and ask how someone else shot it I will reread the walkie or stage procedure and let you figure out the freestyle part.

[Carmoney]

OK, OK....I didn't mean I'd ask the ROs for strategy tips for chrissakes. With the varying interpretations from reputable sources, though, I think the wheelgunners had a right to clarification.

(By the way, the ROs on the stage handled the appropriately, professionally, and in my opinion, completely correctly.)

Mike

[Jerry V]

Mike,

Just curious how you shot the classifier and how well you did ?

[Carmoney]

Jerry, I took all three reloads (along with all the other wheelgunners).

I did T3, T4, reload, T2, T1 over the barrel.

Then same thing through the barrel.

My hits were sorta poor, 70 points in 13.70, for 5.1095.

Keith won the stage, with 77 points in 13.88, for 5.5476, proving it's smart to just slow down a whisker and get the hits.

Not a good classifier, though, in my opinion.

HQ needs to remember there is a Revo division when they approve these things.

Mike

[Jerry V]

Well you did a lot better than I did (like that's a big surprise )

I did it the same way but at 64pts 20.23sec Hitting my knee on the metal frame didn't help either, not that I'm making excuses but .......

Later -- Jerry

[hopalong]

Mike, Jerry,

Remember HQ doesn't care if there is a Revo division or not....would rather it dried up and went away.

Shoot what they send and make them put the numbers in the computers !!!!

On a side note about Revolvers in USPSA

I checked names from last years USPSA Nationals and this years.....

there are only 7 returning shooters in the nationals (out of 17) Seems like some how there should be a way to get those folks to return.

Barry in JULY has a WHOLE bunch to do with it, maybe after this year now that the contract is up that will change....

There could easily be as many or more revolver shooters at the USPSA Nationals as L-10 or even Production if things were better done.

Off the soap box.... sorry for the thread drift.

SAM

[Carmoney]

Sam, keep in mind the situation this year where you had to jump on the waiting list within a few minutes after midnight to get a slot (if you hadn't been fortunate enough to earn one during the '04 season)!!

I can think of several who I'm fairly certain intended to shoot Nat'ls but didn't get in quickly enough. Too bad, we might have had 30 or 35 revos, particularly if we had time to get everybody fired up on it, like we did Ohio.

Mike