Help With Inconsistent Loads

[Paradox]

I have seen several posts on similar topics, but not all of them exactly describe what I am seeing. I have been tinkering with this dilemma for a week now, I just want to stop *$c%!ng with my loads and go shooting

My problem presented itself after I decided to chronograph loads last week. Velocities were all over the place, with an extreme spread of over 80 FPS.

For reference, my practice load is 180gr Master Blaster bullets over WST, WSR primers, and mixed brass. I am using Dillon Dies with a Lee FCD as most of the brass has been shot through Glocks (I am shooting a STI).

My first step was to disassemble, clean, and lube my press including the powder measure and a wipedown with anti-static spray on the measure (No lube on powder measure). I tightened the shellplate to the point where I had minimal play and still keep free movement (approximately 1/8 turn before lock). I also ensured that none of the dies contacted the shellplate at the top of its travel. The sizing and FC die are set approximately 1/8 turn from interference with the shellplate. Using some of my match brass (Winchester), I adjusted the powder die to flare 0.010" as per Dillon's reccomendation.

Then, I adjusted the powder measure to dump a smaller charge than I needed increasing to the desired charge. (In the future, I will start with a larger charge and work down for reasons listed later.) I assumed this would minimize slack between the adjustment bolt and the powder bar. Once I made a change, I dumped 4 charges pulling and pushing the handle as consistently as possible. Then, I dumped 2 charges in a dummy case weighing the total. I preformed this three more times to check the powder charge. Average weight variation was within +- 0.1 grain. (I believe this is in acceptable limits...)

Next, I used some junk cases to set OAL. I ran the adjustment knob down by hand until I reached a round that measured 1.18". I repeated this 2 more times, with a variation small enough I didn't concern myself with it.

At this point, I was thinking to myself, "OK. I should have a good base to start loading..." Sure... Until I start measuring during / after the loading process.

First, the powder charge has increased itself. I am sure this is attributed to the additional vibration from the sizing and resize/crimp die. OK. Fine, I can readjust to compensate - Only now the charge varies +- 0.3 grains. Next, my OAL has changed. The loaded round OAL now varies between 1.183" and 1.194" *sigh*

I feel that the biggest factor in the OAL variation stems from the fit of the die plate and the press. There is a noticable wobble between the two. It seems that perhaps some kind of plate or C shaped channel could be fabricated to pull the die plate into the top of the press for more consistency?

I still have the new style "fail safe" system on my powder measure (aka Fart Knocker / Clunk-Clunk / etc.. hehe) My next modification will be EricW's retrograde or a variation of it to remove some of the.... uhhh Clunking. I would almost want to remove the carbide sizing ring out of the crimp die, but that would defeat its purpose. I really enjoy not having to worry about a 'Glocked' case sticking in the chamber (knock on wood I haven't had that problem since using the FCD die).

A few details might have escaped me for the time being, but that is my current situation...

Additional notes:

1.) The MB bullets are not as consistent in weight as my JHP's and that could (will) account for some variation in velocity.

2.) I have tried other powders and while the problem isn't as pronounced... it is still there. (I use Titegroup or N320 for the JHP's and get smaller variations, but they are still more than .1 grain)

3.) Mixed cases have different case volumes, but again I have the same problem with separated cases. (The variation is not as pronounced but more than it should be.)

4.) I will remove the Fail Safe feature tomorrow, and recheck. Obviously, the press seems very consistent before I add in the size / crimp stations.

5.) Anything I can do besides presizing and soaking the cases in lube to improve consistency?

5.) Am I missing something in my method of press setup?

6.) I love my Dillon, and wouldn't go back to loading pistol calibers on a single stage, but DAMN... surely there is a light at the end of the tunnel?

7.) I have 10k of bullets and brass to load... I want to go shooting!

Sorry for the short story, but I am about to go bald at an early age... Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Justin

[Austin Hemphill]

I have used the masterblaster bullets in the past, and found that with n320 and ramshot competition I could get the extreme spread over 20 rounds down to about 30-40 fps. I tried WST, and had similar problems. My notes showed that I got about 60 fps spread. But, it also showed that I consistantly got one round that increased the spread, with the SD around 19 fps. I really liked the bullets, and if my new barrel in my limited gun shot them any better, I would still be using them.

[Alan550]

Paradox,

You seem more concerned about those variations than accuracy......no mention of how the loads shot in that respect. Low SD, consistantly low velocity spreads, etc. are nice but don't always indicate how accurate the load is. Bench some of that stuff and if the accuracy is there on any of them, screw the velocity differences!

Alan~^~

[virginiascout]

One of the things I have found with OAL problems is the bullett seater. I had and so did a friend major differences in OAL as you are describing. The problen was we were using Flat Points and they were hitting the edge of the seating stem. Had to get out the emery clith and expand the stem so the bullet flat point was hitting the inside base of the seating stem. Now they seat to within .001 + or -. There was also a thread to use foil inside the stem as a temporary fix.

As to powder varation I am now using the thread that said set the measure with 10 drops of powder . This got rid of the multiple changes on setup and has upped the accuracy. Might also check the powderbar for wear on the edges of the powder chamber in the bar. I had to replace the one bar because of wear. By the way I always have a casing in the resizer when doing this.

I would also use the alignment tool on the head, dillon will send it free. I also had to replace the link arms, they were wore and the ram would spin clockwise or counterclockwise by moving the handle at the full down position of the arm, up on the ram no casings in place.

You are not having problems with the shell holder loosing up? Did you really snug up the retaining bolt on the sholder bolt? Does it still have a brass end on the retaining bolt?.

Just a few suggestions. Hope ths helps.

There is a light at the end. Dillon will spend as much time on the phone as you need to fix the problem and will send all the parts needed.

[1911user]

It reads like you didn't have a case in the sizing die while adjusting the other dies. A case in the sizing die forces the toolhead up and takes the slop out of the toolhead/frame interface. That might explain the OAL differences.

Make sure the powder bar travels fully each time. That "failsafe" bar needs to be there for the current powder measure configuration. It is what pulls the powder bar back since there is no longer a spring (or 2) on the measure to do it. It should be adjusted so the spring on the rod is compressed some when pushing the handle forward as if to seat a primer. When checking or setting the powder bar, make sure you push the handle forward, even if not priming a case, to make sure the powder bar is pulled completely back.

I'm not sure what you mean by soaking the cases in lube, but that sounds like a bad idea. For carbide pistol dies, an optional coat of spray lube should be a lite coating at most.

[George]

make sure you are not overcrimping, this will cause much variance in V.

I agree that if the accuracy is there, 80fps ES is no biggee. Especially if it is mostly attributable to 1, or two flyers. Bigger samples are better over the chrono.

--

Regards,

[Paradox]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Austin & Alan550: Good to know someone else has experienced the same issue with these bullets - now I don't think I am crazy lol. I get A zone accuracy at 50 yds offhand with my loads so perhaps I am being too anal... I know that if I miss a headshot at 15+ it was my fault

virginiascout: I will check into the bullet seating die. I haven't seen an alignment tool before, but I will also call Dillon and inquire. Thus far, I haven't noticed my shellholder loosening up. However, I have only loaded about 400-500 rounds since I went through the press. Thanks for the tips!

1911user: You are correct. I didn't have a case in the sizing die when measuring powder drops and OAL. Seems like I would have already thought of that hehe. I do adjust the rod spring to allow the powder bar to return fully on the down stroke. My comment about soaking the cases was sarcastic at best... I was insinuating that I needed to slick them up for more consistent press operation.

George: I have adjusted the FCD according to factory recommendations. I am basically just removing the bell and adding a very slight taper crimp.

My biggest concern for getting my ES down was for consistently making major. I shoot for a 168PF, and 80FPS adds pucker factor when I get chrono'd. If I don't get the ES down, perhaps I will just add a bit more powder and forget about it for the time being.

Question: I said I was going to do the powder measure retrograde, but has anyone actually measured a difference in consistency afterwards? I can live with the extra noise, but it seems to me that the powder measure itself is fairly consistent...

Many thanks,

Justin

P.S. - I have tried WST, Ramshot Competition, and N320 with the MB bullets. N320 has been the most consistent thus far. Competition and WST exibit almost the same measuring properties. WST smokes less for me, and I already have a keg of it (I use it in .45ACP).

[dillon]

A couple of things to check: First, be sure that you are flaring the case mouth enough to consistantly activate the powder measure. In my experience, the case mouth should be flared at least .010" larger than a sized, unflared case.

Next, the spring above the blue wing nut should be considerably compressed when you push forward on the handle to seat the the primer. This makes sure the

powder bar is pulled all the way back to pick up a consistant charge.

Finally, be sure you start with the measure at least 2/3-3/4 full, throw about 15 powder charges to settle the powder under the baffle, then start weighing the charges.

[EricW]

I don't think the Dillon's the "problem" as much as varying bullet weights OD's. Honestly, if they shoot good, bump up the load to 179 PF and don't worry about it.

[Bronson7]

Ok, first off, get rid of the FCD and use a standard taper crimp die. I like Hornady's but any will do. The FCD in addition to post sizing your cases is also re-sizing your bullet. That doesn't make sense does it, especially when we're concerned about bullet diameter. This will greatly smooth out your press. When you post-size, using the FCD, that material has to go somewhere. It will vary your OAL depending on case wall thickness, bullet diameter, sized diameter,etc. Variances in bullet ogilve will also have an impact on OAL as well and some bullets are just more consistant than others in this regard. In addition, do the the retro mod to the measure as previously mentioned. It'll smooth out even more and I recommend two springs around the charge bar. Why Dillon went to the "Clunky" version, I'll never know.

If you over bell your case and use that same case repeatedly to set your powder measure, you WILL get a larger throw when you start loading the other cases. The reason is the excessive bell on your set-up case was not pushing out your charge bar all the way and the fresh cases are. I know this for a fact through my own experience. That's my two cents. Set-up your dies exactly per Dillon's instructions.

Long winded but I hope this helps.

Bronson7

[dillon]

Actually, there is a pretty good reason for the change in bellcrank design on the powder measure. On Dillon loaders with mechanically indexed shellplates, the two-piece bellcrank physically blocks the powder bar from returning far enough to pick up another powder charge until the shellplate has started to advance to the next position. This makes it even less likely than before to inadvertantly drop a double powder charge. On a manually indexed machine such as the RL550B, it provides no advantage in this regard. A side benefit is that the "clunk" of the lock-link disengaging from the frame of the powder measure is that it helps to keep the extruded powders a bit more settled. A helpful hint is to have the blue wing nut tight enough that only about half of the lock-links bearing surface is caught behind the frame of the powder measure.

[al503]

Ok, first off, get rid of the FCD and use a standard taper crimp die. I like Hornady's but any will do. The FCD in addition to post sizing your cases is also re-sizing your bullet. That doesn't make sense does it, especially when we're concerned about bullet diameter. This will greatly smooth out your press. When you post-size, using the FCD, that material has to go somewhere. It will vary your OAL depending on case wall thickness, bullet diameter, sized diameter,etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree about your assessment of the FCD. If set up properly with the included directions, it will not re-size the bullet. The best way to check is to load a few rounds and pull the bullet. None of my bullets are re-sized.

Paradox:

on your OAL variation, make sure that you apply about the same amount of force each time at the end of your downstroke. When I first started loading, my OAL would vary by around ~.006. I couldn't figure out why they would average 1.155 in one session, then 1.160 then next (without making any adjustments to my seating die.) I then noticed that I was not consistent with the amount of force on the downstroke. I'm now down to about ~.002.

[Bronson7]

Ok, first off, get rid of the FCD and use a standard taper crimp die. I like Hornady's but any will do. The FCD in addition to post sizing your cases is also re-sizing your bullet. That doesn't make sense does it, especially when we're concerned about bullet diameter. This will greatly smooth out your press. When you post-size, using the FCD, that material has to go somewhere. It will vary your OAL depending on case wall thickness, bullet diameter, sized diameter,etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree about your assessment of the FCD. If set up properly with the included directions, it will not re-size the bullet. The best way to check is to load a few rounds and pull the bullet. None of my bullets are re-sized.

Paradox:

on your OAL variation, make sure that you apply about the same amount of force each time at the end of your downstroke. When I first started loading, my OAL would vary by around ~.006. I couldn't figure out why they would average 1.155 in one session, then 1.160 then next (without making any adjustments to my seating die.) I then noticed that I was not consistent with the amount of force on the downstroke. I'm now down to about ~.002.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your disagreement is well taken.

I've measured the cases around the bullet bearing surface before and after going through the FCD. They vary .0005 to .001 smaller after going through the FCD. Matter can't occupy the same space at the same time. This is with cast bullets. I never used it (FCD) with FMJs so I don't know about those.

Bronson7

[al503]

Hey Bronson,

I only load jacketed bullets. It makes sense that you have to be more careful with cast bullets.

Al

[CenTX]

Call Dillon and tell them the exact problems you are having and listen to what they say to fix the problems. I wish I had written everything down because they resolved my problems.

I was having similar problems caused by inconsistent powder drops after a year of consistent drops and my OAL became inconsistent, I probably screwed up the OAL trying to solve my powder problem. I reset all the powder stuff multiple times according to the documentation and still had inconsitant powder weights. When I called Dillon the instructions I was given to adjust the powder measure were different than the written documentation, but they resolved my problems.

If I ever have problems with my 550 again, the first thing I'll do is pick up the phone and call Dillon.