More Production Shooters

[SRT Driver]

Clay,

1.2.1.1, 1.2.1.2, 1.2.1.3 - ..."Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view..."

Short courses cannot require more than 9 rounds to complete.

15 or so would allow Production shooters to push it more and not significantly reduce the number of reloads.

[Chuck Anderson]

15 rounds might not be a factor for Glock but that is the exception. .40 in just about every other gun, CZ, Sig, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, will not have a 15 round capacity. And where do you draw the limit? 11 rds? 12? Just about every full size gun, and most compacts, can get 10 in of 40.

As far as course design most that I've seen use 8 to 9 round arrays. The only thing having 15 in allows you to do is miss more. I like Production being more of an accuracy division. Less room for error. I know my steel shooting has gotten a lot better since switching (except for that no shoot at Area 1 that was hiding behind the steel, he might beg to differ)

[SRT Driver]

The only thing having 15 in allows you to do is miss more.  I like Production being more of an accuracy division.  Less room for error. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Less room for error - definitely. A few more rounds might allow everyone to push more..hang it on the edge. Right now, the risk far outweighs the reward in many cases.

I am not familiar with all of the Production guns in use but, IMHO, 10 rounds is really close to minimum with 9 rounds arrays.

With minor scoring, Production has always been an accuracy heavy division. That won't change.

[et45]

15 RD limit would be great. The Crime Bill is over so why not allow the use of full capacity mags?.

[splashdown]

I like the 10-round limit. It levels the playing field between a lot of approved models in both 9 and 40 cal. If the limit was raised to 15, you would raise the favor of Glocks even more and that's not the purpose of the division.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't really see the point of changing the division. What would it solve? The 10 round part of Production is part of the thing that makes the division so tough to shoot.

I think it's a case of trying to fix something that really isn't broken.

[alma]

There is really no reason to change Production Division. The 10 round limit really helps make most production guns competetive. Lets not make it an arms race.

[Nik Habicht]

Thread drift:

Do you guys like the 10 rd limit in production?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, because it:

1. Allows guns other than 15-17+ round wondernines to be shot in the division, i.e. Beretta or Sig .40s, H&K 45s, Compact guns like the Sig 228/9, the Glock 23, and the S&W 6900 series. That actually helps us get some shooters out to the range --- because they can start shooting with what they own, without being hindered by lower capacity. It also allows the compete with your carry gun crowd a place to fit in.

2. I like the reloading --- and the way it forces me to break down stages. It's a cool challenge......

[Rikarin]

And please do not forget about we californians who can't own highcap mags..

[BritinUSA]

I think they should remove the 10 round limit and bring USA back in line with the rest of IPSC.

The magazines cannot be extended they have to be to factory spec so I don't see it kicking off an arms race, that hasn't happened in the rest of the world and they havenever had a 10 round limit in this division.

As to Kalifornia, my heart bleeds for any decent person who has to live in that State. Perhaps one day wiser heads will prevail and you guys/girls will get a government that fixes all your problems.

Failing that, you may have to move... As for me I could never live in an earthquake zone, with lousy traffic, smog and San Francisco (shudder)

[Flexmoney]

The magazines cannot be extended they have to be to factory spec so I don't see it kicking off an arms race, that hasn't happened in the rest of the world and they havenever had a 10 round limit in this division.

Sure it has. You don't see many competitors shooting anything but a high capacity 9mm in IPSC.

[Jake Di Vita]

I still haven't heard what good it would do. What would bringing it back inline with IPSC really do that is so great? For that matter why don't we drop Limited and adopt Standard instead?

[Chuck Anderson]

The magazines cannot be extended they have to be to factory spec so I don't see it kicking off an arms race, that hasn't happened in the rest of the world and they havenever had a 10 round limit in this division.

What again was the capacity of the Tanfoglio Sport and CZ SP-01 that everyone was in such a huff about a couple months back? 19 rds? Of course it created an arms race in IPSC, much more so than in USPSA.

[BritinUSA]

The controversy over the Tanfoglio and SP-01 had nothing to do with mag capacity. It had to do with the fact that (at least for the Tanfoglio) it was designed exclusively for production, it had all the bells and whistles (mag well, extended dust cover etc). It was basically a custom built production gun.

It meets ALL the criteria for Production Division. But the committee removed it from the list then re-added it. Mag capacity was NEVER listed as a reason for the removal.

A standard Tanfoglio will carry about 17 rounds I believe...+ one in the chamber.

[sturmruger]

I personally don't care what the rest of the world shoots.

I like shooting Production because it turns most of the courses into giant puzzles. Figuring out all the mag changes on a 34 round course can be fun if you want. My XD will only hold 15 rounds of 9mm while the Glocks can hold at least 17 which would get on my nerves. I am sick of everyone always wanting to change everything. Let's just leave everything that way it is.

[spook]

The CZ SP01 does not have a magwell. It was removed from the list because it had a long dustcover (which to a lot of people seemed more like an excuse than a valid reason for removal, since the P01, Jericho and others also have long dustcovers)

Capacity was never listed as a reason, but it is likely that it was taken into consideration. The SP01 and Tanfo had a lot of small features that, when you add them up, result in a pretty competitive gun.

BTW, the mag capacity for the Tanfo is 19+1 and I know someone who can cram in 20+1.

Flex$$ is right. There is an equipment race going on in IPSC PD, and the funny thing is that it is there, because the rules try to prevent one from happening.

The cool thing about this equipment race is that it shows how little equipment means. People are getting all fired up because they think certain guns are more competitive than others. But in the end of the day, Dave S. spanks them all with a 3rd hand G17 with some Heinies

I wish we would adapt rules that were closer to USPSA rules when it comes to PD

[Chuck D]

It's more than just California with a mag cap problem...add Mass. N.Y. N.J. and Hawaii to the list of people that need to move.

10 round restrictions in P.D. level the playing field. Every gun legally possible for the division is EQUAL in as far as capacity is concerned...regardless of manufacturer and caliber. Having only 10 rounds to work with eliminates the "spray and pray" techniques sometimes seen in Open and Limited Division. Lastly, it eliminates the arms race seen in IPSC P.D. If it doesn't hold 17 plus...it's not seen as competitive.

USPSA got it right by sticking to 10 round only.

[MoNsTeR]

The 10rd rule is good for Production. Eliminating it would kill ALL .40's and ALL 9's that can't squeeze in at least 17+1. Guys that have G19's or USP Compacts or Ruger P94's or what have you would be painfully aware of their round count deficiency, and I would expect most wouldn't come back. It's already hard enough attracting shooters to Prod, we don't need to start turning guys away.