More Production Shooters

[TNK]

At June's monthly Western Nevada Pistol League (WNPL) match in Reno, NV, there were, for the first time (as I recall), more shooters in Production Division than in Limited 10. There were ten in Production and seven in L-10. As one of those Production shooters, it pleases me to see our modest division gain support. Mind you, the club is hardcore 1911 fans (most of whom seem to be going Limited if they were not already Open). I have taken some abuse for my loyalty to the factory 9X19 round and the succession of Berettas, Sigs, and Glocks I have shown up with. I am now using the Glock 17 and like it best. Yet, I am still told by some 1911 guy that "when I get serious" I will "move up" to the expensive race gun with some exotic caliber that I can only obtain by reloading. I don't think so. My personal rule is to only to compete with what is on my CCW permit. If it is not on my permit, I shall not use it.

The Glock is the most popular pistol among the cadre of Production shooters, but the XD is gaining a following. At the last match, there was one Beretta 92 (the shooter of which won the division) and a Para LDA in minor .40 with a heavily-doctored trigger. I think this one is not exactly in the spirit of Production Division because who would carry concealed with a three pound trigger, which was made such by some serious mickey mousing? But it is not against the rules of the Division in the U.S. (so far), so I let it go.

I love my Glock, and I love Production Division. I am not changing or "moving up."

[SRT Driver]

Several local shooters in my area kick butt with their plastic. For some, the 1911 platform is not the best choice. If it does not work for you, it is not an "upgrade." A Glock, XD, or CZ is not a "downgrade" in our sport either.

We have seen the same trend also. Production has had the largest draw in 3 of our last 4 matches with L10 second. Having 25 to 30 Production shooters at a local match would have been unheard of a couple years ago.

And the competition is excellent with our two local Production GM's and several masters really pushing the field.

For me, shooting Production is fun and challenging. And I don't worry about losing brass.

[Derek45]

It's not uncommon around here to have more production than Limited shooters, many are experienced, long time shooters, . . . . . and some new faces from the IDPA crowd too.

[eerw]

Wow..that would be cool...production is yet to take off in our section..most goes to limited, close behind is open, with L10 then production then revolver..

still fun..as I like to try and keep up with the other division shooters..makes it very challenging and rewarding when all is working well..

[Chuck Anderson]

Shoot whatever you want. I started in IPSC with a Glock 22. Worked my way up to a 35 and then made, "the big move" to an SV platform limited gun. I shot the Limited gun well and enjoyed it but my classification never seemed to go up. After playing with Open and going back to limited I realized that I really hadn't improved in 5 years. Too much switching back and forth between duty/carry gun and play gun. Switched back to my Glock 17 this year and I'm shooting better than ever. Keep shooting what you're comfortable with.

[alma]

I think it really helps to have active club shooters that shoot production class regularly. When the new shooters show up shooting a production style gun and they can see shooters the same style gun and doing very well it lets them know that they can be competitive and a $3000 investment isn’t needed to have fun. I really love shooting production division and I don’t have any plans on changing any time soon.

[Chris40]

I am thinking about giving production a try it might be a little easier on my elbows. I am thinking about getting a CZ from Matt.

[bberkley]

Shoot whatever you want.  I started in IPSC with a Glock 22.  Worked my way up to a 35 and then made, "the big move" to an SV platform limited gun.  I shot the Limited gun well and enjoyed it but my classification never seemed to go up.  After playing with Open and going back to limited I realized that I really hadn't improved in 5 years.  Too much switching back and forth between duty/carry gun and play gun.  Switched back to my Glock 17 this year and I'm shooting better than ever.  Keep shooting what you're comfortable with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I would agree that you are shooting extremely well this year, makes me glad I'm mostly shooting Limited.

Did you have fun at the ABC House Match? Stick around and shoot against KC?

[Clay1]

I shoot production with a G34 and love the division. Remember that I am cheap! I have no desire to move "UP" (note that I would call it moving to a DIFFERENT division not up). If Sevigney is shooting production is must still be OK for us mere mortals.

One comment on part of your post: "I think this one is not exactly in the spirit of Production Division because who would carry concealed with a three pound trigger, which was made such by some serious mickey mousing? But it is not against the rules of the Division in the U.S. (so far), so I let it go. "

USPSA is a shooting sport game, it is not training for concealed carry. A three pound trigger is heavier than I shoot and it is within the rules. There is nothing mickey mouse about a quality trigger job. Also the comment "so I let it go" - what were you going to do besides let it go - those are the rules you have nothing to do with letting it go or not. Remember if we keep score it's a game.

Rick

[Chuck Anderson]

Production in USPSA/IPSC was not designed around carry guns. It was designed to allow shooters to get involved with less investment. And to allow a place to shoot DA first shot guns, "competetively". I use the quotes because there are shooters who can shoot the DA guns, pretty darn well, like David Sevigny. Don't worry too much about what other shooters are using. The guy who is the World Champ in production is running a gun with maybe $100.00 in work. And almost all of that is in the sights. The only thing I did to my Glock 17 is put a set of Warren sights on and Eric Wesselman's TruGrip (that stuff is the S##t). I run into this attitude a lot when I'm trying to get cops on the range. They "say" they don't want to go out and shoot because it's not tactical or the equipment isn't what they shoot. USPSA can be as tactical as you want to make it. Shoot from concealment if you want, shoot a 5 shot S&W snub. There is nothing in the rules against it. The only thing that stops people from doing it is they're competetive drive. Personallly I shoot USPSA for trigger time. No, it's not tactical training. No, I have not had the urge to suddenly jump out from cover and engage an array of 4 bad guys with two shots each.

And Brian, yes I had fun at the ABC Match (where are the results?), and no I didn't stick around to shoot against KC. After getting my butt kicked by a tiny Philipino boy all day I didn't feel like paying extra to get it kicked some more. Great kid to shoot with though.

[splashdown]

Wow, I think it would be great to have more production shooters in the game. I've been shooting USPSA for 3.5 years now and I've yet to see more than 5 or 6 at a match. I've done all of my shooting in south Florida and NW Washington. I shoot a Beretta pretty well, but I'm almost ready to give my G35 a whirl. If I don't like it enough it'll get sold and I'll go back to a Beretta. There's nothing wrong with shooting only Producion. It is separate from the others and is a level playing field within itself. If I ever move to Limited, it'll be with my G35 assuming I like it enough.

splashdown

[toddrod]

I just started shooting Production after shooting Limited for 2 years and I really enjoy it. I like the aspect of having to slow down slightly to make sure to get more A's and call me crazy, but I like the extra reloads compared to Limited. The ammo is also dirt cheap to buy or reload. Where I shoot in S. Louisiana there is more and more shooters gearing up and shooting Production. I am using a CZ 85 Combat worked over by Matthew Mink and love it.

[JayC]

Hey guys. You know I'm from Iowa and at our local matches our production stinks. Our biggest turn out for production class this year so far has been 3 shooters. There have been a lot with just 1 shooter. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting production, it just gets old competing by yourself or against maybe one or two others. Around here the other 30-40 shooters are split among Limited and L10. There are a few in Open, and a lot of the time the Revo class is bigger than Production. Anybody else out there run into this? I wish there was a way to change this.

[alma]

I just started shooting Production after shooting Limited for 2 years and I really enjoy it.  I like the aspect of having to slow down slightly to make sure to get more A's and call me crazy, but I like the extra reloads compared to Limited.  The ammo is also dirt cheap to buy or reload.  Where I shoot in S. Louisiana there is more and more shooters gearing up and shooting Production.  I am using a CZ 85 Combat worked over by Matthew Mink and love it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I like the extra reloads too. It makes me feel good when I can finish the stage around the same HF as the limited shooters when I am shooting minor and doing 2 more reloads.

I also like having to do more work to "game out" a stage. Most people don't realize what a challenge it can be to shoot certain stages with a ten round gun until they do it.

Hey guys. You know I'm from Iowa and at our local matches our production stinks. Our biggest turn out for production class this year so far has been 3 shooters. There have been a lot with just 1 shooter. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting production, it just gets old competing by yourself or against maybe one or two others. Around here the other 30-40 shooters are split among Limited and L10. There are a few in Open, and a lot of the time the Revo class is bigger than Production. Anybody else out there run into this? I wish there was a way to change this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like your club could use some more hard core production shooters. Heck, you could be the first. Once a few people start shooting the division regularly it will encourage others to dust off the DA/SA and Glocks and shoot production class.

[JayC]

That's all I shoot is production. I've shot it for 2 1/2 years now. Guess how long I've basically been the only production shooter. Yep you guessed it, about 2 1/2 years. I use to shoot a lot of IDPA, but shot USPSA about 4 years ago then stopped until I heard they had a production division. It's just never taken off around here. Even the clubs up in northern Iowa only have 2 or 3 production shooters. Heck this year at the Iowa Sectional I think there was only 5 or 6 production shooters. The number of revo shooters was almost double that. Oh well, I'll just keep shooting it anyway .

[TNK]

It being a game means that it is a discipline that tests the skills of shooters within certain limits. For instance, in Production Division, the limits upon equipment test what a skilled shooter can do on an IPSC course with a factory gun and a daily carry rig. True, the rules now (in USPSA Production Division) do not have a minimum trigger pull, but I support the establishment of one because Production Division is about performance within the strictest limits on equipment. There are other divisions if one wants to build a custom race gun.

As for my comment about mickey mousing triggers, I was referring to a LDA pistol that has its Series 80 parts removed to lighten the trigger pull. I am not comfortable with removing safeties. Factory pistols are engineered and tested to perform properly in a particular fashion. When these specifications are altered, it makes me cringe. If one does not want Series 80s parts, there are 1911 pistols available without them.

Production Division is about not embracing the 1911 mentality that insists on radically changing pistols to suit the whims of the shooter. Production Division came about because at last there are non-1911 pistols that stand up to the rigors of competition. Berettas, Glocks, Sigs, HKs, and CZs are excellent just the way they come out of the box. Granted, they can use some minor tuning, and Production Division rules permit this work, but such activity is nowhere near the level of changes people do on their 1911s. Yes, there are purists who do only minor alterations to their 1911s, and I applaud them, but they are a rare breed.

It is within the discipline of a game that people know whether they are any good. Given the many rules of Production Division, it seems that eventually we will learn who are the best shooters given the limitations of what a factory gun in Production Division provides.

[Rockclimbg]

Hey guys. You know I'm from Iowa and at our local matches our production stinks. Our biggest turn out for production class this year so far has been 3 shooters. There have been a lot with just 1 shooter. Don't get me wrong, I love shooting production, it just gets old competing by yourself or against maybe one or two others. Around here the other 30-40 shooters are split among Limited and L10. There are a few in Open, and a lot of the time the Revo class is bigger than Production. Anybody else out there run into this? I wish there was a way to change this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

+1 on most of this, we usually see around 7 or 8 production shooters at the most, and 20+ limited shooters, I'm going to start shooting limited with some slight changes to my production gear. With a Glock 35, all I really need to change is the powerfactor and capacity, it won't be the fastest setup but it won't hold me back either, at least not at the local level that I shoot.

Rockclimbg

[sturmruger]

JayC my buddy Aaron and I drove down to the IA Sectional to shoot Prod. If I remember correctly there were a total of 8 prod shooters in the match. You really should come up to MN some time. Most of our matches we have a leat 12 prod shooters and I have seen as many as 20 at the larger matches. The MN section is going to be a great match with probably 20+ production shooters. Check out www.mnuspsa.org for more information.

Here in MN we have a good amount of Prod shooters, but I know that isn't true everywhere.

[SRT Driver]

True, the rules now (in USPSA Production Division) do not have a minimum trigger pull, but I support the establishment of one because Production Division is about performance within the strictest limits on equipment.

Minimum trigger pulls accomplish nothing. If you shoot a Glock, a good 2 lb trigger costs less than $75 or ever less if you do it yourself. Production is not about carry guns although you can shoot what you carry and be competitive.

With a decent trigger, a Glock 35 can run with other custom Limited guns while costing thousands less.

[Clay1]

I would also NOT be in favor of a trigger pull minimum. I think that you could set a minimum of 1 1/2 pounds if you really need one, but the safety of the trigger and it's reliability are far more important.

Rick

[Ben Stoeger]

Thread drift:

Do you guys like the 10 rd limit in production?

[Dan Mancini]

Being a recent convert from IDPA, the change to Production has been great. I love the stages in USPSA.

While one day I hope to have a really cool, super tricked out race gun, right now I have no problem shooting my used Glock 17 in Production. I have a lot to learn about USPSA and I'd rather not be trying to learn a new gun also. I'm about to switch to a Glock 35 for production and maybe go to Limited with it next year.

Not sure I understand the problem with low Production numbers? I've been to a few matches that I've been the only Production shooter. So. Look at the overall finish. How many Limited, Limited 10 or dare I say, Open shooters did you beat? It's actually quite gratifying. So I have to do a couple more reloads than you do, so what. We're here to have fun. I can't afford a Limited gun, so this way I can shoot the same Glock that I've been shooting for the past few years.

Now that I made the switch to USPSA, I'm very disappointed I waited this long. And with the way that IDPA SSP and USPSA Production mirror each other there is no reason to NOT shoot both. More shooting is good. More reloads, more movement, longer shots, more difficult shots and stages.

As far as the 10 round limit, I have no problem with it. My vote would be to leave it alone. To remove the limit would create too much overlap with Limited. I know they don't have it in IPSC, but here in the US I don't think it would be good for those that live in states that restrict magazine capacities.

Dan

[Chuck Anderson]

I would be heartily against a trigger weight limit. I'm shooting a Glock with a stock 5 pound + trigger. But if you put a weight limit like IPSC does, you tend to bias towards DA first shot guns, i.e. CZ. The first shot is 6-7 lbs and the rest are 2 lbs. If you shoot a striker fired gun your stuck with 5 pounds for every shot. USPSA got this right. As far as the 10 rd mag? Like Alma said, it's kinda fun to go through a stage and do two more reloads than limited and still win the stage. I don't think there is a real good reason to change this rule. The 10 round limit allows more guns, and more calibers to compete on an even playing field.

[SRT Driver]

10 round limit in Production....Eh, it's ok but a 15 round limit might make things a little better. 15 rounds might make things more competitive since shooters might take more chances and push the envelope.

Plus, 15 wouldn't tip the scales towards 9 or 40. Both can stuff 15 in a mag.

This is considering the 9 round limit per array. With 10 rounds, I find myself a bit more conservative, although getting bitten by risky plans has been known to happen!!!

[Clay1]

Is it 9 rounds per array or 8? Can someone point me in the right direction of the rules. I did a search under the word "array" and only had one hit so they call it something else in the rule book.

Thanks in advance.

Rick