Self Start Stage.

[IPSCDRL]

Stage is self start, gun in holster. Stage description has shooter press a button which starts the timer. What happens if the shooter starts his draw with the strong hand as he presses the start button with the weak hand and is already drawing when the timer beeps?

[mactiger]

He gets penalized by the RO, for creeping.

Troy

[Skywalker]

Michael,

I guess the following answers your question:

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

US10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the firearm, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position, posture or stance after the “Standby” command and prior to issuance of the start signal will be stopped, if possible, and restarted. If the Range Officer is unable to stop the competitor prior to the start signal, the competitor will incur 1 procedural penalty.

Now, how you determine if a competitor is moving only to activate the timer, and not towards the gun too, that could open a whole new can of worms.

[Rob Boudrie]

In this case, the shooter was allowed to do anything with either hand other than touch the gun. Given that description, I believe that a procedural can be properly assessed without resorting to a "creeping" call - since it's hard to "creep" when the cof allows any hand movement not touching the gun.

[diehli]

IMO it could (should?) have been taken care of before it became an issue (seriously, what would you expect to happen?). Have the stage description read "press start button with strong hand."

[mactiger]

Given that bit of additional information, there could be no penalty assessed. If the COF allowed any movement other than touching the gun, all movement is then allowed. There is no rule to support a procedural other than for creeping in this case. And, if the incident is as Michael described, ..."the shooter starts his draw with the strong hand as he presses the start button with the weak hand and is already drawing when the timer beeps?" (italics are mine), then it's definitely creeping.

I gotta go with 300# on this one, too. That's a pretty loose stage procedure, IMO.

Troy

[alma]

I don't know why anyone would design a stage like this because you are just asking for problems. It also takes away control from the RO. This is a really bad stage design if you ask me.

[chuckw]

I agree with Alma. What's the point of a self-start stage anyway???? I also thought they were removed from the rule book?

[Rob Boudrie]

MacTiger's point does seem to make sense - what is interesting in this case is that there is an zone between "standby" and "beep" which was treated as it if was "during the course of fire" - but the beep had not started. So I guess I was wrong assuming that a "procedural" rather than "creeping penalty" was warranted.

[ErikW]

I did a self-start stage for the Golden Bullet C'ship last year. You started strong hand touching timer. If your strong hand was moving to the gun, it wasn't on the timer and wasn't a valid start position.

Self-start stages are great because they take a shooter out of his normal comfort zone and introduce a "monkey wrench" element. The only problem is when the shooter waits for the beep after the Standby command from the R.O.

I don't see an easy way of implementing a bulletproof self-start stage in a larger field course. But with a little-movement speed shoot, it's not hard. My timer was mounted on a shelf on a wall, and the wall's middle portion was made of mesh so the timer would pick up shots if the shooter reached around the wall with the muzzle forward.

9_Burn_It_to_the_Ground.pdf

[IPSCDRL]

The timer was mounted on the shelf and set to instant. Here is the course description.

GriswaldXmas.pdf

[Boo Davis]

Hey Guys,

Self start stages... What can I say. It thought we got rid of those crazy things in the early 80's! I am somewhat glad that they are back because I remember in the late 70's when Robbie had a .37 draw on a 12 yard target! It was amazing but then we realized he was already aiming at the target before he hit the buzzer.

He's the BEST!

You best bud,

Boo

[Jim Norman]

Self start stages properly set up are fine. Basically as long as the challenge is equal to each shooter in each division, any stage is fine.

With a Self-Start Stage, you do have to be carefull that the design doesn't allow shadowing the timer and thereby missing the last shot and yielding an eroneously short time.

Jim

[ipsc1]

The Ontario , Canada provincial championship last weekend had two self start stages. They used pressure switches which plugged into those little yellow speed timers. As the competitor took off, the RO unplugged and followed as normal.