3-gun Match- Brady Texas

[Wakal]

I guess if you want to see how some of the top 3-Gun shooters around (like Our Hero, Benny Hill) solve shooting challenges, you can try to learn from them.

If you want to self-purpetuate mediocrity, then stifle innovation and drive away interested and dedicated 3-Gunners as your "very limited" rules have done right out of the box.

If you keep score, it is a game

See you at the Cav Arms match!

Alex

[MikeFoley]

In the spirit of being helpful, and not criticizing anyone, or trying to convert anyone to the open racegun scene, here is a link to Kyle Lamb's NA3G rules (he is the real thing), also used by the Tennessee boys, who run one of the best matches in the country. This keeps it real enough, and lets everyone play with gear they already own. Check it out, and I hope it helps.

http://vikingtactics.com/3Gun/5th/MatchRules.htm

[shred]

Moderator note: even though Brian's away, the rules still apply-- play nice. It's their match, they can do what they want. Others are free to differ, but calling something 'moronic' (which nobody has yet, btw) or the like is poor form and not likely to win any converts to your side.

[AShooter]

In the spirit of being helpful, and not criticizing anyone, or trying to convert anyone to the open racegun scene, here is a link to Kyle Lamb's NA3G rules (he is the real thing), also used by the Tennessee boys, who run one of the best matches in the country.  This keeps it real enough, and lets everyone play with gear they already own.  Check it out, and I hope it helps.

http://vikingtactics.com/3Gun/5th/MatchRules.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, I am amazed that the rules cited above are actually MORE restrictive than mine. Seems like there are only two things that could possibly be turning some of you guys off: One - my open-ended "MATCH DIRECTOR RESERVES THE RIGHT TO DISALLOW ANY GEAR HE CONSIDERS 'GAMEY' OR UNSAFE", and Two - My restriction of shotgun barrel length and tubular magazine length (which I previously said I'd consider changing).

To be honest, I'm to the point where I really don't want a bunch of bitching and moaning at the match to spoil my fun, so I'm NOT trying to convince anybody here to come if they think my rules are simply "fostering mediocrity" or are "moronic". BUT, I am curious as to why some of you are so bent out of shape over a set of rules that's actually MORE LENIENT than 3 different sets of rules that I've been referred to by you guys. What gives???

[SinistralRifleman]

Ashooter, I wouldn't get too worked up over this. One of the primary functions of this forum is rule lawyering and debate, so no one gets to an event and then is told their equipment puts them in a different category or is not allowed.

With well defined rules published ahead of time, 99% of the people will read them and understand them, so fewer arbitrary decisions will be made on the spot. Other rules may be less lenient, but they are more objective and set a clear standard for everyone to follow.

Rules continually evolve and change as more experience is gained running matches and participating in them. I suspect after you run a few of these events, you will have some changes to make yourself...it's the natural course of things.

Good luck with your match, and I give you credit for trying to get something going in your area. Everyone that owns firearms should participate in some kind of structured shooting event, I hope you can get new people shooting and involved with the sport.

[MikeFoley]

I too applaud your effort, and I was careful not to be critical, I simply thought you may like to see what other "tactical" matches were doing so that you could establish your rules written in stone ahead of time (plus you asked in your original post for some simple rules). This is what shooters expect, and arbitrary is what they don't like, just look at what happened to one of the shooting sports earlier this year over holsters. I apologize for sticking my nose where it obviously didn't belong (you asked though), and I wish you the best of luck with your match.

[benny hill]

The big thing is everyone has equipment set up for uspsa tact. or multi-gun rules & won't fit in your match. It cost's money evertime we have to change. It's cheaper for you to change the rules some than for us to change equipment. Good luck with the match.

[ccur]

MY AR, my shotgun, and my pistol that I use in IPSC Limited are the exact same ones that I used for SOF...with a Blade Tec holster....If you want SOF rules, tactical Division in IPSC is really close to that...

Cheryl

[AShooter]

Hey, I just want to clarify that I am really NOT overly worked up about this. A little perplexed, yes...

There has been a lot of really helpful info here from some of you folks, and I really appreciate that. (but, there has been some "attitude" here as well, and I'll just come right out and say that we don't want or need that at this match - this is supposed to be fun, remember?)

Anyway, I am still kind of confused as to what the problem is. As I read the other rules that some of you pointed me to, the only thing about mine that's more restrictive is the shotgun barrel/mag length.

...I give up. If you want to play, you're WELCOME (and from what you say, you'll probably win). Otherwise, we'll have a fun match without you.

[Wakal]

Don't forget the "no more than 1/2" of magazine exposed" in the holstered pistol rule. I took a poll of the usual loco locals, and none of us even OWN a short (126mm) .40 STI magazine.

We do have a guess about your gear, though. Do you run a single stack 1911, 870 shotgun, and a 16" AR with a Trijicon? Just curious

Alex

[AShooter]

Don't forget the "no more than 1/2" of magazine exposed" in the holstered pistol rule.  I took a poll of the usual loco locals, and none of us even OWN a short (126mm) .40 STI magazine.

We do have a guess about your gear, though.  Do you run a single stack 1911, 870 shotgun, and a 16" AR with a Trijicon?  Just curious 

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually no... I usually run a 14.5 AR with an Aimpoint (sometimes ACOG), a Glock .357, and an 1100. But I DO sometimes run a single-stack 1911 and/or an old 870.

[Wakal]

A Glock was a high-second on our informal equipment guess poll

Why don't you make the very SHORT trip over to San Angelo this coming Sunday (26 June) around 10am, and shoot our usual "warm up" rifle and shotgun stages? Then stay for our regular (five stage) club match at 1pm. Since you haven't been to our club before, we will cover your match fees this time around

www.sanangelogunclub.org

We would all be glad to have you!

A

[jkmccoy]

AShooter,

We aren't offended (at least I'm not). I am disappointed because I was looking forward to a fun little 3-gun match near home. It won't be any fun if all the guns/equipment I own are disallowed. I am an IPSC shooter. However, I have been allowed to use my gear in non-IPSC matches. I don't mind being put in a different category/class because I have a dot-sighted, magazine-fed shotgun (with a 22" barrel, Alex didn't include me in his post for some reason) and pistol magazines that stick out of the bottom of the grip (I don't even own a magazine that fits flush!).

I agree with Alex. Come play with us this weekend (many of us will be shooting very "practical" gear as a tune-up for an upcoming Production match). See if it isn't fun to play along with people shooting serious race guns and gear. You've said that the point is to have fun and I agree entirely. Many of us have fun shooting heavily modified guns and using gear that is designed for competition.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

San Angelo, TX

p.s. My IPSC holster is a CR-Speed holster which doesn't cover any part of the front of the gun but because it has very positive retention is standard police issue in several African countries (it's made in South Africa). I'd say that makes it pretty practical.

p.p.s. The pistol in my nightstand is an IPSC pistol (now retired from active competition, but it fired a lot of matches). It would be a very bad idea to test the theory that IPSC guns are not "practical" by breaking into my house in the middle of the night.

[SGDM]

Gentlemen....Hamp.

Ashooter, as you can see, this is a tough crowd but do not despair. It is your match, your rules, and when you have it, they will come. As you can see, you can't please everyone and the mission here is to provide the shooter a safe, challenging, fun course of fire.

There is quite a bit of knowledge hanging around in here and you can use the input to enhance your decision making process and file the rest.

God Bless America!

[Wakal]

when you have it, they will come

That is the point, no we won't!

If you want Kelly, Bill, Fred, Liota, Cary, and I to shoot...most of the Texas State 3-Gun "build" crew...as well as Benny Hill and the rest of his group...then drop the 21" shotgun barrel rule, the mag extension (both pistol and shotgun) rule, and put some limits on the "if we think it is gamey, it is out" arbitrary rule (otherwise known as the "we think you might win, so there is the door" clause many of us remember from other outlaw matches like the American "no you can't use a iron sight rail, even though I told you it was ok a month ago" Handgunner). The "no race holsters" rule, as laid out by the Cav Arms Crew, is just fine and perfectly understandable. However, the rest are not.

You wanted us to help you RO, and we are all for it. We are willing to help anywhere, anytime (unless it involves staying in a campground, sorry, Russel)...but with your rules and refusal to consider changing them, we will not.

Sorry,

Alex

PS But we will still pay your match fees, if you want to wander up to San Angelo Sunday at 10am

A

[AShooter]

...(otherwise known as the "we think you might win, so there is the door" clause many of us remember from other outlaw matches like the American "no you can't use a iron sight rail, even though I told you it was ok a month ago" Handgunner). 

...PS But we will still pay your match fees, if you want to wander up to San Angelo Sunday at 10am

    A

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate the offer, guys! But I'm heading to a "tactical carbine"match tomorrow over at Hays County, so I can't make it Sunday (wife won't let me )

6/24/2005 UPDATE: I have been advised that some of the shotguns I thought were 20" barrels were actually 22" barrels...(oops! Shows how much I like shotguns, huh?) So, one last rule-change is that shotguns may have barrels up to 22" in length. Sorry for the screw-up....

But the other rules are staying the same, for now.

[bpowe]

Ashooter, how did your match turn out? We had a couple of tactical types that wanted to come but must not have gotten their apps in in time. Please keep us in mind for any other matches yall hold (especially if you ease up on the equipment rules so more of us can play).

Bill

[QuinnKid]

Ashooter, how did your match turn out?  We had a couple of tactical types that wanted to come but must not have gotten their apps in in time.  Please keep us in mind for any other matches yall hold (especially if you ease up on the equipment rules so more of us can play).

Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quote from ASHOOTER on ar15.com

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=203383&page=2

THANKS to everybody who came and helped out at the match!!!

Sorry some of you couldn't make it. It was small, but LOTS of fun! Everybody had a great time and had an opportunity to think on their feet a little more than most of the matches I've been to.

Also, we learned a few things that will make things easier for us next time... Each shooter had roughly 25 minutes of trigger time, which was GOOD, but would have been bad if we'd had a full 20 shooters standing in line waiting. We'll have to cut the "patrol" stage down to about 1/4 mile or so next time, and maybe have a loaner set of binoculars for people to carry so they can spot the "snipers" more easily.

All in all, I think everybody had a great time and the next one should be even better! I'll send everybody a heads-up when we are ready to line folks up for the next match. Hope to see y'all next time!

Sorry, no pics. I was so busy it never even crossed my mind!

You wouldn't be able to see much in the pics anyway... hell, the guys had a hard time seeing the steel as it was! All the steel targets were hanging in the shadows of trees and were so hard to see that as we were setting it up, we decided to hang survey flagging at each one in order to make sure the shooters didn't walk past every one of them. Most of our plates were only about 6-8 inches wide by 12-16 inches tall.

It was cool, though. They had to move fairly quickly to stay ahead of the par time, but look VERY carefully to find the steel out at 75-150 yds, then all of a sudden they would walk up on an IDPA silhouette in the bushes at 20 feet. As one of the shooters who just returned from his 2nd tour in Iraq said, "There was some good 'oh-shit factor' there... I like it." Then at the end, they had to run about 50 yds and then scope out a hillside about 300-350 yds and locate and hit a "sniper", which was an 18" x 24" steel plate, all on the clock.

What we're thinking about doing next time is making the "patrol" stage a lot shorter. Instead of making it a half-mile long and having people walking at a normal "diddy-bop" walking pace, make it more like 300-400 yds long through the brush and make them really have to "hunt" their way through it like they would if they were expecting somebody to shoot at them.

[gl]

(like Our Hero, Benny Hill).............

He is my hero! Big wet kiss for Bennie from Guy!

LOL!