3-gun Match- Brady Texas

[QuinnKid]

We're thinking of a small group of 15 to 20 shooters. I was going to cook BBQ for everyone. Below is a post from the guy who knows whats going on more than me.

A post from ar15.com.

ashooter@ktc.com

Anybody think they might be interested in this - out near Brady, Tx very tentatively scheduled for July 23rd? Any thoughts or suggestions??? (hint: we need SO's to run shooters through the stages!)

Below is the text of an email I sent to a friend of mine who is an old SOF match shooter and has been involved in this type of thing since the early 80's. It's a pretty good outline of what we're trying to do:

Wes and I got to talking about this match idea some more and based on a topo of his place, his description of the terrain and sketch of the berms/pit area (in the caliche pit/rock quarry), what I envision is something like this:

1) One handgun "CQB" type stage in a small pit area approx 50x150 feet

2) Shotgun "CQB" stage in a medium sized pit area approx 75x200 feet

3) Carbine "CQB" stage in large pit area approx 200x500 feet. This pit has a large long "berm" running down the length of the center of it. Wes says he thinks this berm may have a cut in the middle of it, so a shooter could work his way down the left side, cross through the middle, and then continue down the right side, for example.

4) Carbine "patrol" stage - just over the hill from the berm/pit area is a ridgeline that would work well as a backstop. I think we can set up sort of a longer version of that "Cooper" stage that they did at Raton 3 yrs ago - walking down along the West side of this low ridgeline looking for and engaging targets. This stage would probably take 10 minutes or so for each shooter (we'd run it on a "par time" basis).

What we envision is this:

Price would be $25 per shooter, which includes all 4 stages above, plus a barbecue lunch. Number of shooters limited to 20 on the first match, which we are VERY tentatively thinking about doing on July 23rd. Signup at 0900, hammer down at 0930. The 3 "berm" stages can all be run at the same time, with squads rotating from stage to stage as they finish each one. These stages will probably wind down around 1200-1230, at which time people can walk over the hill for BBQ under the shade trees around a tank, and shooters can begin the "patrol" stage.

On the "patrol" stage, we can't start a shooter until the previous shooter is finished, so it will take about 3-3.5 hours to get all the shooters thru. Probably not that big a deal as there is shade, and BBQ, and bullshittin' available. We'd draw numbers from a hat for start times. Also, we're thinking about making the patrol stage sort of a "side match" so people can either choose to stay and run it, or blow it off and it won't hurt their cumulative score in the "berm" stages.

Wes has some stuff we can make barricades etc out of, swinging steel targets out of, and IDPA silhouette stands out of (he's a big welder)...

Anyway, I'm gonna put my feelers out and see if I can get enough experienced people so that we have at least 6 RO's (SO's if you prefer). I don't think that'll be a problem, though it is REQUIRED to run the match safely.

Any thoughts, suggestions, etc....???

EDITED TO ADD: NFA SHOOTERS WELCOME!

[mike.45]

Where is Brady texas??

[shred]

Where is Brady texas??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pretty much smack in the middle.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Brady,+TX

[jkmccoy]

If you are really going to run this thing let us know. I'm sure there are five or six of us that will come down from San Angelo. Count me in for sure and hold some slots for the rest of us!

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

San Angelo, TX

[Liota]

Sounds cool. A club-sized 3-gun match.

Liota

(one of the Angelo bunch)

[DougD]

I would be very interested in a 3-Gun Match at Brady. Me and a friend or two would be coming from McKinney, just north of Dallas.

Douglas Deaton

A-50481

(6th Place in Limited at Texas State 3-Gun this year...)

[QuinnKid]

Okay guys, AShooter here.

Looks like this match is a GO for July 23rd. Space is limited to 20 shooters max. Email me for a Match Outline and Entry Form (ashooter@ktc.com) ENTRY FORMS MUST BE RECEIVED BY JULY 16th.

ALSO, WE COULD USE A COUPLE OF EXTRA SO's AND TIMERS, so any help in that regard will be appreciated.

AShooter

[QuinnKid]

AShooter checking in (finally figured out how to register)

[AShooter]

AShooter checking in (finally figured out how to register) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay... NOW I got my act together... (forgot this machine was already logged in as QuinnKid)

[bpowe]

I'm one of the guys from San Angelo... I finally read the rules for the match and I guess I'll have to bow out. You disallow most of my toys and shooting the whole match with just my AR probably wouldn't work.

Bill

[AShooter]

Aw, I'm truly sorry to hear that... You guys must be IPSC shooters, huh?

(Forgive me, but I've never hung around this forum 'til QuinnKid posted the match here.)

[Wakal]

If you look at the name of this forum, it says "3-Gun, IPSC Rifle/Shotgun Match Announcements"

We play with grown-up toys here

From reading through your rules, I really like this paragraph:

NOTE:  We will make no distinctions between "optics vs iron sights", "auto vs pump shotgun", "auto pistol vs revolver", "full-auto vs lever-action", etc.  In the "real world", your "targets" would make no such distinctions, i.e. they do not try less hard to shoot you simply because you are slower on the trigger or less accurate.

However, this next paragraph has made the entire San Angelo crew lose interest (bold mine):

Equipment requirements:  NO IPSC type gear.  NFA SHOOTERS WELCOME.  Shotguns may have barrels no longer than 21 inches, and magazines may not extend farther than 1/2 inch beyond the muzzle.  Magazines in holstered handguns may not extend more than 1/2 inch below the grip frame (spares may be "extended").  NO optics will be allowed on handguns.  If a shooter begins the match with one type of optic on his carbine, he may not switch optics for the "patrol" stage.  (Though it will not be a "rule" for this match, we strongly encourage only military type optics, in keeping with the spirit of the match.)....  As a general rule, we are trying to keep to the spirit of something like IDPA or the SOF match.  Blade-Tech type kydex is okay, tactical "drop leg" holsters and vests etc are okay - NO CROSSDRAW HOLSTERS WILL BE ALLOWED due to safety considerations... Bring what works in the field and you won't have a problem from us.  MATCH DIRECTOR RESERVES THE RIGHT TO DISALLOW ANY GEAR OR WEAPONS HE CONSIDERS "GAMEY" OR UNSAFE.

Since I assume my 18" dot-sighted mag-fed shotgun, and my wife's 18" dot-sighted mag-fed shotgun, and my friend Fred's compensated 18" dot-sighted mag-fed shotgun would be "gamey"...as well as Fred's dot-sighted mini-comp'ed Blade-Tech DOH Kydex rig pistol...Bill's dot-sighted compensated pistol (in my Blade-Tech DOH)...as well as our other friend Dale's 24" comped dot-sighted ported JP 1100 shotgun (mag tube too long), Cary's 24" 1100 with the long mag tube...

Ah, well. So much for six of us driving a mere half-hour to shoot (and help you RO).

Have a fun match; see you at the Cav Arms match in October!

Alex

[benny hill]

I thought these type matches & rules died a few years ago, looks like some have survived.

[SinistralRifleman]

The spirit of the rules seems somewhat contradictory...no seperate categories for types of firearms used, because the real world is not fair...yet then limitations placed on the types of equipment used.

I think you guys should read our trooper class rules if "the world is not fair" is what you are going for...use whatever you want, you just have to carry it all, if it breaks you better have spare parts to fix it on you. Engineer the match and courses of fire to be such that through use "gamey" equipment has the potential to fail. The only types of equipment I would disallow would be because of safety concerns.

Many types of equipment that are "gamey", are later adapted and adopted for real world use.

[Larry White]

Well they wanted a small bunch of guys for a three gun match, those rules will help keep it that way.-----Larry

[BigHamp]

Gentelmen,

It is a game.

Hamp

[Wakal]

And not much of a game if no one wants to come play due to the published rules. This thread has most of the region's serious three-gun shooters (plus Our Friends at Cav Arms) posting in it, and all of 'em are saying pretty much the same thing.

Alex

[AShooter]

Hey, I didn't mean to offend anybody... But, we are trying to keep this thing as "practical" as possible. IPSC may have once been "practical", and I'm sure it is FUN, but it is not in keeping with what we're trying to do with this match. Sorry you guys have decided to bow out....

edited to say - see my next post below.

[AShooter]

.... Basically all we're trying to do is limit equipment to stuff that can stand up to daily use and is not "impractical". If somebody wants to shoot a shotgun with an Aimpoint on it, I'm pretty sure we can "amend" the rules to deal with that. Blade-Tech dropped and offset holsters are not going to bother anybody at this deal - BUT those IPSC type holsters that basically have no front WOULD. Or shotguns with 24 inch barrels and umpteen round magazines -- You must admit they are kinda silly for anything BUT 3-gun shooting.

Look guys, we're not trying to tick anybody off or rule anybody out. We're open minded about this stuff, but we want a SAFE match and a match where we use equipment that is not specifically tailored for this type of "game" but more for "real world" use.

Can somebody give me an idea for a better set of equipment rules, that fits the goal I'm trying to reach as stated above without requiring 20 pages of "legalese"????

I'm open minded (sort of)

[Wakal]

Seeing as the CIS Military uses Saiga mag-fed shotguns, and how the USAS-12 was designed and built as a entry gun...that would take care of the "gamey" smell with mag fed shotguns.

My own (issue) M4's have Aimpoint Comp-M sights on their wee little flat-tops, and the Miculek comps seem to be finding their way onto issue rifles in the field with amazing regularity (that takes care of the dot-sighted comp'ed rifles).

While I haven't shot with those folks who balance large parti-coloured balls on their noses whilst playing tunes on a trumpet lately, my spies tell me that slide-mounted Doctor sights on 9 by 23 widebodies are becoming the hot ticket over in the sandbox. That would take care of the dot-sighted widebody pistols

The trouble with trying to "draw the line" at military v. gamey is that the military is finally starting to catch up to the competitive shooters. For decades, the military was the driving force in firearms innovation. However, it seems that they got lost in the dust about the mid-70's and have been trying to catch up ever since. Wish I could find the recent picture of the Operator toting the AR10 with the 18" barrel, Leupold 4-14 scope on top, and the Aimpoint on the handguard at 2 o'clock...heh heh...

Rules examples?

Those pesky Cav Arms guys have giving this a lot of thought, and I'm quite impressed with their rules:

http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/3gunrules.html

And Superstition/Mystery Mountain has cleaned their rules up nicely over the years, becoming a paragon of simplicity and clarity:

http://www.smm3g.net/

It sounds like you are terrified of "race holsters," which is OK. You can do what the Cav folks did, and mandate coverage and/or retention. Of course, my Limcat hoster has both a light "passive" lock and a solid "secondary" lock and I'd argue the point of "retention" if I didn't like those guys so much (and already have a Kydex holster that fits my racegun). Besides, going prone with a holstered Racegun in a Limcat would suck

Alex

[SinistralRifleman]

Ashooter, the comments between your quotes are merely suggestions...because of distance I most likely will never attend your match, but here are my thoughts for the sake of discussion.

.... Basically all we're trying to do is limit  equipment to stuff that can stand up to daily use and is not "impractical".  If somebody wants to shoot a shotgun with an Aimpoint on it, I'm pretty sure we can "amend" the rules to deal with that.  Blade-Tech dropped and offset holsters are not going to bother anybody at this deal - BUT those IPSC type holsters that basically have no front WOULD.

Here's the rule we made for our 3 gun match regarding holsters...we did this for the sake of safety (because we allow handguns to be hot on the stage):

1.5.5 Due to the physically active nature of this match, holsters must be of practical carry type, duty use, or field serviceable. Holsters must either have a passive retention method (tension on the holster itself, such as Uncle Mike’s, Fobus, or Bladetech kydex holsters) or an active retention method (thumb break, flap, or rotating hood). Holsters with active retention devices, must have the retention device activated whenever the pistol is holstered.

1.5.6 Due to safety concerns with re-holstering hot pistols, the use of “race gun” type holsters is prohibited. Race gun holsters include, but are not limited to, CR Speed, Ghost Holster, or Hogue. Range Officers and the Match Director will have the final say in regards to the suitability of any holster for use in this match.

1.5.7 No shoulder holsters, or cross draw holsters allowed due to safety concerns

Or shotguns with 24 inch barrels and umpteen round magazines -- You must admit they are kinda silly for anything BUT 3-gun shooting.

If you don't want people using these, the answer is simple...engineer courses of fire where it is a disadvantage to have a barrel and magazine tube that long. Make them shoot through ports, around obstacles, go through tight corridors.

The only rule I would have for the sake of safety is a maximum length the magazine tube can extend beyond the barrel.

Magazine fed shotguns are specifically designed for combat, whether it be a Saiga or USAS-12...let people use them. If you want to make it more difficult for these guys to discourage their use, have courses of fire where they must switch back and forth between slugs and shot several times. They either then must preload their magazines to match up with how they shoot the stage, or constantly change magazines.

Look guys, we're not trying to tick anybody off or rule anybody out.  We're open minded about this stuff, but we want a SAFE match and a match where we use equipment that is not specifically tailored for this type of "game" but more for "real world" use.

I think one of the biggest benefits of 3 gunning is it serves as a valuable arena for testing and evaluation of new firearms technology that can later be adapted to real world use. Design your match in such a way that inferior equipment will fail through lack of reliability or endurance. If your guns run 100%, you will sometimes beat people of superior skill level when their equipment breaks.

Let people use whatever they want, but there are no alibis for equipment breakage. You could even go so far as to say that any malfunction that takes the shooter more than 15 seconds to clear will cause them to DNF the stage (call it a dead man's gun penalty), at which point all the targets will be assessed as failures to engage and misses or whatever penalties you are using.

Can somebody give me an idea for a better set of equipment rules, that fits the goal I'm trying to reach as stated above without requiring 20 pages of "legalese"????

I'm open minded (sort of) 

Check out our rules:

http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/trooperclass.html

http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/3gunrules.html

Also check out Rocky Mountain's rules.

Adapt them to your purposes

[SinistralRifleman]

The trouble with trying to "draw the line" at military v. gamey is that the military is finally starting to catch up to the competitive shooters.  For decades, the military was the driving force in firearms innovation.  However, it seems that they got lost in the dust about the mid-70's and have been trying to catch up ever since.  Wish I could find the recent picture of the Operator toting the AR10 with the 18" barrel, Leupold 4-14 scope on top, and the Aimpoint on the handguard at 2 o'clock...heh heh...

You're correct...most of the photos we receive from US Service Personnel or Contractors using our products, show their firearms outfitted with what would be considered Open Class equipment most of the time.

[AShooter]

I will check out the Cav Arms rules. BUT I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT MOST OF WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SQUAWKING ABOUT IS NOT RULED OUT IN MY RULES... other than my little blurb about "no ipsc type gear" being allowed, which may have been a porr choice of words.

I don't think I ever said anything about excluding optics on shotguns, or box mag fed shotguns, or dropped-and-offset holsters. The Cav guys have obviously given this a lot more thought/work than I have, but basically what their rule on holsters says above is what I am aiming for. I don't want some guy with a fast-draw IPSC holster sticking out 3 inches from his body (with all but an inch of the front open) having a hot handgun clattering across the ground when he goes prone. Other than that, I/we really don't care what you use....

But I still have to draw the line at optics on handguns and shotgun tubular mags sticking waaay out beyond the muzzle. I'd really like to hold firm on the "shotgun barrels must be 21 inches or less" rule, but I'm willing to consider striking that one. If you have a 24" barreled shotgun, you are probably gonna suffer enough in this deal.

What do you think?

I think y'all are actually reading more into my "restrictions" than I meant to be there. They're short and sweet for a reason - I DON'T want to put a lot of limitations on shooters.

[Larry White]

Ashooter, you used them two bad words, real world,this is a game, it has a score card. Spent some time on this forum and look up USPSA & IMGA 3 gun rules, we pay a lot af attention to rules because we follow them, I can use those rules and shoot 3 gun all over this country,except Brady TX. I,m not talking about the super trick open divison stuff, my limited class gear wont fit your rules. Shotgun has a 22in barrel and a 23in tube. My pistol has 140mm mags, those are the most common setups in the country. Go to a few USPSA or IMGA matches, when you get there, welcome to the real world. In the meantime, have fun at your match in Brady, we'll shoot in the rest of the country.-----Larry

[AShooter]

Okay, I have studied the CAV 3-gun rules, and we're really not too far off. Actually, I'd say in some ways their rules are more restrictive that ours are.

I've doctored up our "rules" a little bit to simply clarify some things, but I think I need to leave them pretty much as-is. If it turns off some of you, I'm truly sorry. BUT, I have to say that if there's a lot of bitching going on BEFORE the match, I'd kinda just as soon the "bitchers" stayed home. This match is about offering a somewhat unique opportunity with the "patrol" stage, and having FUN. Bottom line is that if a bunch of fire-breathers show up who are gonna nitpick every little thing and stretch my VERY limited rules to the limit, it's not going to be fun for those of us that are trying to have a good time and pick up on some useful training.

For any of you that do plan to come - we WILL have a good time, dammit!

If you rather shoot in "the rest of the country", good luck and stay safe!

Adios.