EricW Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Unbelievably enough, I took some time to read a rulebook the other day. It got Thai curry splattered on it, but I actually read parts of it. Once of the things that piqued my interest was the use of shotgun slugs on steel targets. I remember reading in FS a while back about an incident at the MGM Ironman about a guy who had to go have the better part of a slug removed from his thigh due to backsplatter. What I don't remember is what distance he was shooting at. The rulebook lists the min. safe distance as 40 yards. Do we really think this is safe? I've been tagged at matches by large pistol backsplatter at 40 yards with concerning regularity. I really don't want to contemplate getting hit by shotgun slug remnants at 40 yards as it sounds almost like a guaranteed hospital trip to me. Opinions? Does the 520PF rule ensure complete disintegration of the slug and preclude large chunks from doing the boomerang? Should we be shooting slugs at steel at all? Do we need a little nanny-state action here? If I don't like getting hit by shotgun slug backsplatter, should I quit whining and stay home? Do we accept the danger as part of the game? Is proper target design part of the equation? If all the slug ever saw, was smooth, flat surfaces, perpendicular to it's flight path, with no features to boomerang the splatter, would backsplatter ever occur? What else is part of the equation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I've shot reduced recoil slugs on good steel at 20-30 yards (about 75-100 of 'em in one session) without anything coming back. Hell, even went up to the steel and picked up highly deformed slugs off the ground. Yes, shit will happen. If it's happening consistently, do something about it. If it's not, kwitcherbitchin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 btt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Took a class from Jim Cirillo some years back. Believe he said avoid shooting slugs at steel. Hollow based slugs can turn inside out and squirt back a long way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I have never seen any coming back from 25 yards and further during practice or matches. I have shot a match where the steel was much "closer" and did not have a problem although I was worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 40 is kinda safe IF the steel is hardened and has absolutely NO craters, or depressions in the face that can act as slings to throw the molten lead stuff back out at a reasonably high velocity. I feel a lot better if it is 50+ and preferably 60 yards minimum just like rifle rules specify. At the RM3G in August 2004, there was a stage called Iron Harry where a large steel plate had to be hit with a slug from 4-5 positions during the stage at an average distance of 40 yards (you could hear that sucker ringing all the way down the valley). Standing back at the line we were watching huge chunks of slug fly off that sucker and back over our heads (we were 50ish yards away). Whenever anyone shot at it, we watched carefully for flyers and ducked if it looked like it was coming our way. If you can see a big hunk of lead flying off a plate and back over your head from 50 yards out, then you have a potential problem. It was a hardened plate, but it did have come indentations in it and I am sure that they helped the ejecta fly back better when a slug hit squarely in them. Rule 1 with steel is No craters on the face. Rule 2 with steel is to use ONLY steel rated for rifles and slugs Rule 3 with steel is call the specified distances absolute minimums and use more if possible. BTW, at the Palm Springs, CA 3 gun match back in March, they had some mild steel targets meant for cowboy shooting (soft slow lead) and we were engaging them at 35-45 yards with rifle. I got a small piece of splatter in the cheek that bled quite a lot from one of my MatchKings while I was shooting. Another guy on our squad got a nice hunk of spatter in the arm that cut him pretty deep. The targets were cratering real bad and whenever anything hit that spot again, it slung the spatter straight back at the shooter at a real good hunk of V. Not good and something I won't put up with again. If I see that at a match again, I will refuse to do it again. IMHO, 7 yards is safe for soft lead shotgun shot on steel, but I would feel better at 10 yards if the competitor was using buckshot. A very specific warning is in order again about NEVER using steel shotgun shot on steel at any distance. Big NoNo! -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 George wrote: "The targets were cratering real bad and whenever anything hit that spot again, it slung the spatter straight back at the shooter at a real good hunk of V. Not good and something I won't put up with again." HERE is a video of a 5.56mm ricochet from what looks like 50 to 100 meters; it appears the video was recorded way, way out in the sticks as this does not even appear to be a real shooting range but rather, someone's property. It is unclear as to what these people were shooting at exactly, nor is there any apparent backstop. D.C. Johnson www.shootersparadise.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cking Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 The rules for slugs is a DQ if fired on steel at less than 40 meters a 131.23 feet rule 10.4.7 www.uspsa.com/rules under shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 Craters are the big no-no. Any piece of steel that has a crater in it is unsafe regardless of the distance. (OK, so a cratered popper at 200 yards is probably safe. But 100 isn't.) Since it is expensive steel that can take a 12 ga slug and not get dented, the best course is to not shoot steel at all with slugs. At Second Chance, we shot all-steel courses with rifles and slugs for two weeks straight. We eventually set up plexiglass fences to protect the waiting shooters and spectators from the hailstorm of bouncebacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisgahrifle Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 I once shot at a club where they set up slug steels at 25-30 yards on out, and thought that folk way behind the line getting hit with splatter from shot was just an "acceptable hazard." I no longer shoot at that club. Coincedentally, they also had a reputation for setting their steel reeeeeal heavy, punishing the hell out of someone using lighter shot on shot steels inside of 15 yards. I shot one match with these folk and had two steels I just couldn't drop- both standard poppers at about 15 yards. After I finished my post-run tantrum, i noticed noone except the ROs that ran it with var-choked guns and goose shot really lit those poppers up. After the match a buddy of mine and I had at those two steels. On close inspection they were not only unpainted, but heavily cratered and rusty. Granted, I'm no expert in setting steel, but solid, consistent hits with full-jacket 185s doing 170 or dead on the paddle should put a popper down. I had to get up to about seven yards away 'fore I could make it drop. After it was mentioned to the MD, all we got was a shrug and a "oh, well. X managed to knock it down, I guess next time you'll use heavier shot." Needless to say there wasn't a next time. The bad thing about steel is that even though it's hella fun, I think you've really got to have someone who has RO'd it before and knows it's limitations. I think way to many people and clubs that really haven't had that much experience outside of a small circuit are buying steel (or building it) and running with it. I know I don't have enough experience setting it up on stages to be comfortable with it. I really enjoy shooting it, but nowadays I like to check out matches where I might be shooting steel ahead of time so I don't come up to a stage in the middle of a match and see that I've got to shoot a popper at 3 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmfield Posted June 6, 2005 Share Posted June 6, 2005 George: I take exception to your comment that the "Iron Harry at the 2004 RM3G had some indentations in it. It was a brand new piece of armor plate and it had no indentations in it either before or after the match. We monitored this target very carefully as we knew it was going to be hit with about 1,000 slugs during the match. It did develop a very small stress crack near the "neck", but this would have had no influence on any slugs impacting it. Michael Field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Michael, I wasn't up close and personal, but I guess all the impact marks looked like shallow indents from the low angle we could see it from the ground. I apologise for assuming the leading marks were indentations. There were however, "visibly" large chunks of lead coming back off it in big arcs towards us and beyond overhead and that is no jive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 Pisgarifle wrote: "After it was mentioned to the MD, all we got was a shrug and a "oh, well. X managed to knock it down, I guess next time you'll use heavier shot." Needless to say there wasn't a next time." Calibration & 20 Gauge slugs on steel: I have seen the attitude described by Pisgarifle at competitions; it happened to be directed towards pistol MINOR loads & steel and I think there is NO place for it in USPSA, at a big match or a small local. If ammo is making power factor & steel does not go down, its equipment failure & no shooter should hesitate to call for a calibration. As for shotguns, the same goes for 20 gauge; if a 20 gauge slug fails to knock over steel, then there is a problem with the steel and it must be adjusted or removed from the match. 20 gauge is not widely seen (yet). I suspect that shot steel and slug steel may often be set without regard to 20 gauge; my only evidence for that is that some shotgun steel at local matches has been set heavy enough that certain 12 gauge shot loads would not take it down. As for the "shrug and oh-well" attitude, leave that to the non USPSA 3 gun matches out there. Regards, D.C. Johnson www.shootersparadise.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 Just a reminder, the topic is the safety of shotgun slugs on steel targets. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENE S Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 I use a Rmington 1100 in 20 ga. Its ported and will still knock down any steel poper you set up. I have now wories about shooting steel with it. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl @ GT Posted June 7, 2005 Share Posted June 7, 2005 I always hear that 25 yards is a minimum safe distance for slugs. I have been using the frangible slugs from International Cartridge Corp. for a couple of years and they are great. We do target demos for police departments and federal law enforcement often and we shoot the frangible slugs from 10 feet away with no splatter at all.... Because there is no splatter. I have been using the same slugs & the 00 Buck in the 3 gun matches, there is no need to worry if I am too close to the steel targets. And the frangible ammo does a lot less damage the targets. Later, Karl @ GT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 7, 2005 Author Share Posted June 7, 2005 I feel a science project coming on. Do the new digital cameras have a high-speed feature built in now, or is that still a special camera? Can you rent a high-speed video camera for a reasonable price? I want to record what is actually coming off a plate. I guess I could shoot a plate through a cardboard box and see how big the holes are too, but that wouldn't be nearly as scientific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I have found #5 shot at 1200 fps muzzle velocity takes down practically anything with the correct choke for a given distance. There is no reason to ever allow slugs or buckshot on steel if it will cause target damage. Distance only reduces the danger of bouncebacks from damaged steel and does not eliminate the risk of serious injury or death. Richard L-1720 CRO Schennberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Buckshot is fine on steel, even at 7 yards it is fairly safe if the steel isn't cratered. Key here is "Not Cratered" Buckshot pellets are a lot less than half the mass of a lead 9mm pistol round at similar, or lesser velocity and therefore less likely to produce spatter on a flat plate. This means buck can safely be used on clean steel at the minimum range prescribed by IPSC (7 meters IIRC). If #4 shot is safe on a plate at 7 yards, buckshot will be too. Slugs are a horse of a different color and not subject to the rules that govern small groups of lead pellets. 40-50 yards is just safe for slugs if the steel is really flat and doesn't crater in use. As I said earlier though, I prefer more distance where possible for slugs and HighV rifle rounds (totally different level of kinetic energy at work here). Think about this, a 500 grain slug can produce some wicked large splatter hunks. BTW, if any steel craters from buck at 1200 fps, then that steel sure as shoot shouldn't be used for major PF pistol rounds. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Close. Bird and buck is 5 meters with charge lines at 6 meters. Anal Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 High-speed digital is rent-able, but expensive. At least the last time I checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I'm having a serious case of deja-vu ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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