Holster Gap Rule for Single Stack

[teros135]

14 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Per a recent NROI ruling, the distance is actually 2 1/8".  This was meant to simplify the measurement by using the narrow side of an overlay (or standard credit card or hotel room key - they all seem to be cut to the same dimensions).

Can you point us to the ruling that says 2-1/8"?  Thanks.

[bret]

16 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Per a recent NROI ruling, the distance is actually 2 1/8".  This was meant to simplify the measurement by using the narrow side of an overlay (or standard credit card or hotel room key - they all seem to be cut to the same dimensions).

this goes back to one of my original questions, does DNROI have the authority to change an equipment rule through a ruling?

It is my understanding DNROI Rulings are to clarify a rule, not change one.

In the ruling it cites the Appendix, which states 2".

I have no issue using an overlay as it is easy, quick and gives the shooter a little bit of extra room.

[grapemeister]

Using an official USPSA overlay to measure holster distance was approved by the board in 2015.  It's at the NROI webpage under official NROI rulings.

[bret]

25 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

Using an official USPSA overlay to measure holster distance was approved by the board in 2015.  It's at the NROI webpage under official NROI rulings.

is it the ruling on penalty for non compliance of holsters?

in that ruling it mentions the Appendix's, they all say 2".

16.2 Equipment rule changes can only be made every 2 years.

Pesky thing, by-laws and rules.

Edited December 1, 2016 by bret

[ChuckS]

49 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

Using an official USPSA overlay to measure holster distance was approved by the board in 2015.  It's at the NROI webpage under official NROI rulings.

It does:

--measurements may be made with an official USPSA overlay, using either the width or length of the overlay as appropriate to the Division requirement. See App. D1-D7, #10 for requirements.

The problem is D1-D7 #10 still say 2" and will until the bylaw clock runs out.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, grapemeister said:

Using an official USPSA overlay to measure holster distance was approved by the board in 2015.  It's at the NROI webpage under official NROI rulings.

But not in effect yet

[ChuckS]

I just noticed something. I seem to recall that the reason the 2.125"  rule was not changed was due to the rule change about letting those 4 guys shoot 357 Sig as major in Limited/L-10. This change started the 2 year timer on rule changes. Now, I can't find the Sig ruling on the USPSA rules page and the change is not in the linked rule book. Is it my usual searching incompetence or has it disappeared?

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

I just noticed something. I seem to recall that the reason the 2.125"  rule was not changed was due to the rule change about letting those 4 guys shoot 357 Sig as major in Limited/L-10. This change started the 2 year timer on rule changes. Now, I can't find the Sig ruling on the USPSA rules page and the change is not in the linked rule book. Is it my usual searching incompetence or has it disappeared?

HQ really needs to get their crap together. The only place I see it now is in meeting minutes from Sep 2014.

[grapemeister]

Sorry, but what are you guys talking about... the two year thing?  Seems like I heard something one time about it but never looked in to it.  What does it mean?

[ChuckS]

20 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

Sorry, but what are you guys talking about... the two year thing?  Seems like I heard something one time about it but never looked in to it.  What does it mean?

The bylaws allow equipment rules to be changed no more frequently than 2 years. As I remember, a rule change (not a ruling) was made to allow 357 Sig for major PF in Limited and L-10. And that started the clock. Although, I can't seem to find any evidence that the rule changed happened. So, I defer to DNROI and El Prez. You may want to peruse this document for other interesting facts: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-bylaws.php

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by ChuckS

[grapemeister]

7 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

The bylaws allow equipment rules to be changed no more frequently than 2 years. As I remember, a rule change (not a ruling) was made to allow 357 Sig in Limited and L-10. And that started the clock. Although, I can't seem to find any evidence that the rule changed happened. So, I defer to DNROI and El Prez. You may want to peruse this document for other interesting facts: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-bylaws.php

 

Thanks

[grapemeister]

The way I look at it,  the two inch rule hasn't changed.  It's just been ruled on that we can use an overlay to measure the distance.  Of course, RO's have been using overlays to measure the distance for years, and probably long before I joined USPSA in 2010.   And, of course, we know overlays are just a little bit wider than two inches. 

I could be wrong, but I don't think the two year rule or clause applies in this case since it was just a ruling on using a measuring device, and in the same ruling nothing changed as far different equipment being allowed or not allowed, and the penalty, or lack there of, didn't change.

Did the board vote the ruling up or down, I don't know, but apparently after the 7 day review it was allowed to go into effect, so its assumed the board approved it.

Edited December 1, 2016 by grapemeister

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

The way I look at it,  the two inch rule hasn't changed.  It's just been ruled on that we can use an overlay to measure the distance.  Of course, RO's have been using overlays to measure the distance for years, and probably long before I joined USPSA in 2010.   And, of course, we know overlays are just a little bit wider than two inches. 

I could be wrong, but I don't think the two year rule or clause applies in this case since it was just a ruling on using a measuring device, and in the same ruling nothing changed as far different equipment being allowed or not allowed, and the penalty, or lack there of, didn't change.

Did the board vote the ruling up or down, I don't know, but apparently after the 7 day review it was allowed to go into effect, so its assumed the board approved it.

They have to change the equipment appendices D1-D7 #10. It is an equipment rule change. Right now those appendices still call out 2" max. Which means the overlay distance does not conform with the equipment rules.

[grapemeister]

5 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

They have to change the equipment appendices D1-D7 #10. It is an equipment rule change. Right now those appendices still call out 2" max. Which means the overlay distance does not conform with the equipment rules.

I understand what you are saying but I don't think the board or DNROI is looking at it the same way, and I agree with them.  Of course, I'm just assuming, but I know I'm right.

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, grapemeister said:

I understand what you are saying but I don't think the board or DNROI is looking at it the same way, and I agree with them.  Of course, I'm just assuming, but I know I'm right.

Actually, that is exactly how they see it:

https://uspsa.org/uspsa-announcements-details.php?Rulings-on-holster-distance-USPSA-Handgun-Rules-231

Rulings on holster distance, USPSA Handgun Rules
 

The two board-approved rulings increasing distance from the belt for all USPSA Handgun divisions have
been moved from “released” status to “held”.  They will not be in effect until they have been marked
as “released”.  This is due to a conflict with the USPSA bylaws which prescribe that division rule changes
can only be made every two years.  In September of 2014, the USPSA BOD approved .357 Sig for Major
power factor in Limited and L10 Divisions, effective January 2015 (Appendices D2 and D3, #5).

[grapemeister]

So confusing.  This announcement seems to say one thing, but the official ruling says another and has stayed the same.  What or who are we to believe.  Anyhow, thanks for the information. It appears that I stand corrected.

[ChuckS]

2 minutes ago, grapemeister said:

So confusing.  This announcement seems to say one thing, but the official ruling says another and has stayed the same.  What or who are we to believe.  Anyhow, thanks for the information. It appears that I stand corrected.

And this is the challenge that the RO corps has to deal with. From the ruling:

--measurements may be made with an official USPSA overlay, using either the width or length of the overlay as appropriate to the Division requirement. See App. D1-D7, #10 for requirements.

Fortunately it says that the measurements may  be made with the either edge as appropriate. With the current appendix D, neither edge is appropriate  and we are back to the ruler method. Once the appendices are changed, the using the overlay will make sense. For your homework, try and find something linked off of the rules page that indicates .357 Sig is approved for major in Limited or L-10...  https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php  (I'm not having much luck myself...)

[grapemeister]

I should have my head examined but I actually enjoy doing the research.  Looking at the board minutes now...what fun reading! 

[grapemeister]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 8:11 PM, ChuckS said:

And this is the challenge that the RO corps has to deal with. From the ruling:

--measurements may be made with an official USPSA overlay, using either the width or length of the overlay as appropriate to the Division requirement. See App. D1-D7, #10 for requirements.

Fortunately it says that the measurements may  be made with the either edge as appropriate. With the current appendix D, neither edge is appropriate  and we are back to the ruler method. Once the appendices are changed, the using the overlay will make sense. For your homework, try and find something linked off of the rules page that indicates .357 Sig is approved for major in Limited or L-10...  https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php  (I'm not having much luck myself...)

Troy confirmed via e-mail today that overlays can still be used for measuring holster distance, as stated in the NROI ruling.  

On a personal note, I hope the two inch rule does not change.   In my opinion, not only is an overlay quick and easy to use, but it also allows for a little wiggle room or variance, and gives the shooter less reason to argue that an RO did not measure correctly when trying to use a ruler, or tape measure.   I don't know how often it happens with other RO's but I know that on at least several occasions an argument was avoided when I explained to a shooter with an illegal holster distance that the overlay is actually over two inches wide and actually worked to the shooters benefit.

[Nik Habicht]

On 12/1/2016 at 5:18 PM, ChuckS said:

The bylaws allow equipment rules to be changed no more frequently than 2 years. As I remember, a rule change (not a ruling) was made to allow 357 Sig for major PF in Limited and L-10. And that started the clock. Although, I can't seem to find any evidence that the rule changed happened. So, I defer to DNROI and El Prez. You may want to peruse this document for other interesting facts: https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-bylaws.php

 

And I was the jerk (one of the nice people?) who pointed that out when they changed the distance from the belt less than two years after approving the .357 Sig round for major in Open/Lim/L10.  IIR my conversation with DNROI correctly, that resulted in a hold until January 2017, when the two year wait is up....

[jkrispies]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'm glad I found it.  My take away from it is:  "Two inches???  Jeez!  I need to install some spacers on my holster!!!"  Which is exactly what I did...  

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, jkrispies said:

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'm glad I found it.  My take away from it is:  "Two inches???  Jeez!  I need to install some spacers on my holster!!!"  Which is exactly what I did...  

I have cut down my template to deal with gamers like you.

[jkrispies]

50 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

I have cut down my template to deal with gamers like you.

It was funny because I read this and thought, hmmmm, I wonder where my ten year old Blade Tech holster falls into this measurement?  I don't remember thinking about it since buying the thing.  It was exactly 2 inches... measured to the OUTSIDE of the grip!  Better check the book... yeah, it's definitely measured to the inside of the grip.  So.... maybe an extra quarter inch of room would be a nice treat, LOL.  

Seriously, though, if someone thinks that 2 inches is too close to the body, I mean... I can't even imagine what their holster must look like dangling off to the side.  

Edited December 4, 2016 by jkrispies

[ChuckS]

13 minutes ago, jkrispies said:

Seriously, though, if someone thinks that 2 inches is too close to the body, I mean... I can't even imagine what their holster must look like dangling off to the side.  

You do know this the 2" is a maximum, not a minimum, right?

[jkrispies]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

You do know this the 2" is a maximum, not a minimum, right?

The maximum is the minimum!