andrewtac Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 SS 40 I put together, tripp system mags, 200 grain bayou RN. I had issues when I first put thr gun together with nose dives failure to feed, usually first or second round. the slide release was hitting, fixed that, the ramp overhung the well, fixed that, higher mag catch. I have probably put 8k through with zero issues, it ran. It would run with 10 rounds in the mag. So I took a break for about a year or so. Finally shot a match today. I have been practicing the last couple months. Probably shot nearly 2 maybe even 3k rounds no issues the last couple months. About a week ago I replaced mag springs, ran it twice no issues (500 or so rounds). Last night I cleaned all the mags, first time ever. Same gun, mags, reloads, everything. The problem is back I think I had 4 maybe 5 of them today. It was always after the first or second shot of a fresh mag (sometimes on start sometimes after a mag change. I did not isolate the mags to see if it was just one. Again only thing I changed was cleaning the mags, are the springs directional? Any other ideas? I won't be able to shoot again for several days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 (edited) Just out of curiosity what OAL are you using and what about slide lubrication. The reason I ask is that I'm looking at a similar problem. My new SS 40 ran fantastic the first 5K [no issues] then in a couple of matches I started having FTF's with the round going straight into the feed ramp and sticking. Others have said its a mag issue, but not so sure; why now and not from the start the mag's are brand new i.e. got them when I got the gun? Was running a OAL of 1.146" changed to 1.175" but still seeing the odd FTF [will probably go back to a shorter OAL but in small steps] The only other thing I noticed was my slide seemed to not hold onto the oil - seemed dry'ish when the problem occurs. Have switched to a grease NLGI 0 rating for slide channel lubrication to see if that eliminates the problem. Edited October 15, 2016 by Fergus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 I think I am 1.18, nothing changed. I found OAL based on the method on here (marking the feedramp and looking for the least amount of impacts). Also, same lube. I use grease and oil, same as always. I will say the feedramp was silver from impacts today. Usually it is dirty with maybe a little silver showing, today there is a clear path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Just my humble opinion but this is where I would start. It sounds like magazine issues to me. My guess is the lips of the magazines are out of spec and the problem has been exacerbated by new magazine springs. I would make sure the lips of the magazines measure from front to back what they should be. I don't know what those measurements should be because I don't shoot SS. But I am sure there is someone here that has those figures and can steer you in the right direction. Also, make sure you have installed the magazine springs in the proper direction. Good luck to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 I've got the measurements from tripp, I'll check them when I get back in town good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWprotected Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 You may also want to put a new recoil spring in. The slide may not be moving forward as fast as it did before if you have several thousand rounds on that spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Adjusted lips last night and left mags loaded (I remembered doing that last time on recommendation for new springs). I am shooting in a couple hours. I'll also order more recoil springs today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Ran today almost no issues. I ran each mag with 9 loaded 3 maybe 4 times each. Then I ran each mag with 8 loaded 4 to 5 more times. My typical start is one with nine to load and make ready, then the rest have 8 (single stack major). I did have one during loading I had to pull the slide back a second time; this was with nine in the mag. The mag ran fine after that, not really an issue but it still concerns me. I will order a replacement recoil spring, it has been in there since I put the gun together and I am sure it could use replacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 In looking back over the thread I'm not seeing a root cause to the issue. Could you summarize your finding's or what you believe the root cause was. Also, what did you mean when you said: On 10/15/2016 at 4:08 PM, andrewtac said: Usually it is dirty with maybe a little silver showing, today there is a clear path. for my understanding. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Well root cause, not entirely sure. I left the mags loaded last night, this might have weakened the springs every so slightly. When stripping rounds out, I did notice the first round or two could hang up on the feed lips and cause the nose of the next round to nose dive. I am not sure this occurs in the gun, and don't have a way to determine if it is; just an observation. I remember this before when the mags were new, and did the same thing (left them loaded for a bit to weaken the springs). Perhaps me cleaning the mags was enough to lower the friction inside on the followers/springs and allow the new springs to exert to much force (causing the second round nose dive). I also noticed the feed lips had spread slightly over what tripp recommends (.350 with a slight taper towards the release point). I had one that was about .350, most of them were around .360. I put them in a padded vise, put a wooden dowel that is about the same size as a 40 case and tapped the lips with a ball a little at a time until they were back to spec. I would strike the lips in a downward motion from the top rather than the sides. When I cleaned the mags I pulled a towel out the top, this could have cause some spreading (but I doubt it, they probably were spread from shooting). I suspect the recoil spring is weak too, I have some on order. When I put the gun together I did try several and settled on the one above that would function best. I think I started with a 10# and worked up. I ended up going with a 13# (all were wolff variable). I imagine if the slide is slow, when stripping a round from the top it will have a higher tendency to cause the round below to nose dive compared to a faster slide (as occurs when I was stripping rounds by hand). The comment about the clear path on the feed ramp....The ramp is usually dirty with some evidence of bullets riding up the ramp, but not like it was when I was having issues. There was a clear and wide path, indicating bullets were ridding the feed ramp more than usual. Again, I am not sure of the root cause as it was likely a combination of things (new springs, less friction in the clean mags, weak recoil spring, maybe the lips being spread). For now it seems to be working better. The feed ramp shows bullets are riding the ramp, but not as bad as the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Great summary thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Yes, you can put mag springs in wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 1 hour ago, ParaGunner said: Yes, you can put mag springs in wrong. Should have been more specific, is either end specific? Each end looks the same. I realize the angle of the spring follows the angle of the follower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dons Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Another humble observation. I've found that some nose dive jams are caused by too strong a recoil spring. Somehow a lighter spring seems to give the round a little longer to rise into "feeding" position. Sounds weird, but it's worked for me in 4 1911/2011s and a few friend's pistols as well. I'd go back to the 10 pound spring and try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, dons said: Another humble observation. I've found that some nose dive jams are caused by too strong a recoil spring. Somehow a lighter spring seems to give the round a little longer to rise into "feeding" position. Sounds weird, but it's worked for me in 4 1911/2011s and a few friend's pistols as well. I'd go back to the 10 pound spring and try it. I had heard that too strong a recoil spring may cause a jam; not so much a nose dive but a straight lateral jam of the soft nose of the projectile into the ramp or possibly the edge of the mag itself by the adjacent round below the round being chambered. But it was "talk" or possibly one could say a hypothesis - you are the first person to confirm with an observation. That said past talk of this potential cause did result in me changing to a slightly softer 16# recoil spring. So maybe it is a combination of mag spring tension and recoil spring weight possibly causing jams. I am considering going to a 14# recoil spring. Edited October 21, 2016 by Fergus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertg5322 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I don't know if you mentioned it, but if you haven't already, give some thought to trying the higher mag catch by EGW. It lifts the mag .02" to aid in feeding. It made all the difference in my .40 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 44 minutes ago, Fergus said: I had heard that too strong a recoil spring may cause a jam; not so much a nose dive but a straight lateral jam of the soft nose of the projectile into the ramp or possibly the edge of the mag itself by the adjacent round below the round being chambered. But it was "talk" or possibly one could say a hypothesis - you are the first person to confirm with an observation. That said past talk of this potential cause did result in me changing to a slightly softer 16# recoil spring. So maybe it is a combination of mag spring tension and recoil spring weight possibly causing jams. I am considering going to a 14# recoil spring. In looking at the recoil spring, also consider what effect the spring is having on recovery of your sight picture after a shot is fired. If you have a good (and consistent) grip and the right spring, the front sight/dot will rise when the shot breaks, then return to where it was, neither too high or too low. If the RS is too heavy the slide will slam too hard when it closes, driving the front sight below the line of sight and you have to wait until it comes back up. If the RS is too weak the sight rises too far when the slide hits the stop on the back stroke and it probably won't recover all the way on the front stroke. With the right recoil spring you shouldn't have problems with either feeding or sight travel. BTW, some people say you should choose your recoil spring for how far it throws brass. My take is that sight stability is more important, as long as the brass is getting out of the gun reliably. Ejector and extractor tuning can help that quite a bit, but that's another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 Sight tracks as described with a 12 or 13. I went with 13 as I thought it would help function. When I went to low the rounds would nose dive sometimes, I suspect it was they were dragging rather than popping into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 3 hours ago, teros135 said: <snip> in looking at the recoil spring, also consider what effect the spring is having on recovery of your sight picture after a shot is fired. If you have a good (and consistent) grip and the right spring, the front sight/dot will rise when the shot breaks, then return to where it was, neither too high or too low. If the RS is too heavy the slide will slam too hard when it closes, driving the front sight below the line of sight and you have to wait until it comes back up. If the RS is too weak the sight rises too far when the slide hits the stop on the back stroke and it probably won't recover all the way on the front stroke. <snip> Yep, this I know and did evaluate. I didn't see a measureable / consistent difference in the small change I made. I suspect that while there is the "best" recoil spring for your gun/grip under ideal conditions there will also be some wiggle room on that given nuances in grip in competition situations. [Well at least for me there is] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Just now, Fergus said: Yep, this I know and did evaluate. I didn't see a measureable / consistent difference in the small change I made. I suspect that while there is the "best" recoil spring for your gun/grip under ideal conditions there will also be some wiggle room on that given nuances in grip in competition situations. [Well at least for me there is] Yes, the changes can be smallish. I could run my Open gun with either a 7 or 8# recoil spring, but the 7# seems to keep the dot noticeably "quieter". Same for the 12# (vs. 11#) in my .40 Limited gun. Of course, that's if I'm using a consistent grip and remember to grip the gun firmly. As always, YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Getting a little off the thread here but teros135 you have touched on an interesting point. I've found that when I made the switch from my 2011 to a 1911 this past spring I have had to change my grip slightly and do a host of small "tweaks" to my technique as a result of the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 Well it happened again at practice today a couple times. It was only on one mag. This same mag was also having issues dropping free. I looked at it closely and noticed if I put it in a certain way the left feed lip would hang on the ejector and put the mag in a bind. I have no idea if these are related, but the mag will now be a dry fire only mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 When you say ejector I'm taking that to mean the magazine catch which holds the mag is that correct? As I had mentioned in my first post I have experienced a similar issue and continue to look at various things - have 2-3 pages of notes and a bunch of pictures. Also did the OAL trial. Good stuff - this whole trouble shooting experience is very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewtac Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 ejector is the little tab that sticks out of the top rear of the frame that strikes the back of the round, not the extractor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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