In Lieu Of Carriers....

[itento]

Some of us were discussing the following from the new rule book...

3. In lieu of the use of ammunition carriers, spare magazines (2), speedloaders (3) and moon clips(3) used in a CoF may be carried in the contestant’s pockets and used for any IDPA legal reload.

Its a common practice when LAMR to take a spare magazine, load a round, release that magazine and place it in the back pocket, and charge the gun with a magazine loaded to Division capacity or magazine capacity (if shooting SSP with 10 round mags, the only way to get to 10 + 1 is with two magazines or to holster, release the mag and put an additional round in it, and reinserting that magazine.

If you put the mag in the pocket and have magazine carriers, you should be in violation of the above rule since the "In lieu of" means either magazine carriers OR contestants pockets, not magazine carriers AND the contestants pockets.Even if you don't further use the magazine in the pocket, it was used in a COF (i.e the first round to leave the gun came from the magazine in the pocket).

How do others deal with this rule??

[Ted Murphy]

This was discussed some on the Safety Officers list. This is not official mind you, but the consensus was that they erred and did not mention the "top off" magazine in the rule book. A literal reading would say you cannot have a barney mag, but in the interests of faster match adminstration, I cannot see an SO taking this to heart.

I guess a hyper literal SO would be salty about it, but so far it has not been an issue at any match I've been to, and I've shot about 4 local and 1 major under the new rules so far.

If an SO wasn't happy about you pocketing your barney mag I suggest you give it to him to hold.

It is one of those details I hope they catch and clean up in the next version, whenever that is (and i hope it's a long time in the future)

Ted

[Nik Habicht]

At the local club matches I shoot, we go hot and shoot two stages back to back. (That's how they manage to get four stages in one indoor range, and get everyone through the match in short order) I've always got fresh mags for the next stage in my vest pockets ---- because we don't unload and show clear until we've shot both stages. At the end of the first, we simply insert a fresh mag into the gun, holster, and move to the next start position......

[GRD]

We don't care how many mags you have on you as long as you only go to the two legal mags in the legal positions on your belt during the stage.

- Gabe

[GeorgeInNePa]

Wow, just when I thought the IDPA rules couldn't get any any sillier. Pouches or pockets, not both?

[Heath]

It seems to me that one could interpret that sentence in a couple of different ways. It could probably be improved.

It could be interpreted to mean that one may either use an ammunition carrier or one's pockets. However, for that interpretation to hold, it should say, "in lieu of ammunition carriers, *all* spare magazines... may be carried in contestant's pockets..."

I think that the intent of the rule is that one could carry magazines in one's pockets in lieu of having carriers for those magazines, but not necessarilly all magazines.

[itento]

Heath, I'm not sure I can agree with you. In fact, The way I read the rules, if you shoot bottom feeders. the maximum rounds allowable for use on the COF is 31 (3 magazines plus 1 in the chamber) or 24 if shooting revolver (6 in the cylinder plus 3 speedloaders or moonclips). Of course this shouldn't be any problem on an 18 shot maximum string?!?!?

CoF 19.  No string of fire may exceed a maximum requirement of eighteen (18) rounds.

I'll have to admit, I was in the habit of carrying a full magazine in my left and right vest poclets, in addition to 2 in pouches, as extra insurance against a malfunction and as weight to aid sweeping the garmet. I believe this is common practice. I now believe that this is illegal and I will stop in the future.

[Crusher]

" I can see clearly now the rain has gone...........I can see all obsticales in my way........."

WoW another "quirk" in the rule book? WHODATHUNKIT?

I use a 140mm mag with a Dawson base pad (+1 and Grams follower) for a charge mag, (20 rounds to start any match) tweek the gun up put the mag in my back pocket, it wont't come out of my pocket untill I have to start the next stage and I have yet to be "BINGED"...... but it is early on the new rules so only time will tell.

[GRD]

It seems to me that one could interpret that sentence in a couple of different ways. It could probably be improved.

Man, if that doesn't just sum up the IDPA rulebook...

- Gabe

[collinsk]

The way the rule actually reads (and the intent) is that whether you use mag pouches or your pocket, you can only have two spare magazines.

If for any reason you have 2 mag pouches, you cannot reload from your top-off magazine in your pocket.

If your place your reload magazines in your front-left pants pocket for example, simply use another pocket (back or vest pocket) for your top-off mag and never use it for a reload.

Bottom line: Always reload from the same place and never go to your top-off magazine.

No SO should even bring this up in a match.

[Duane Thomas]

We don't care how many mags you have on you as long as you only go to the two legal mags in the legal positions on your belt during the stage.

For years I was in the habit of loading up enough mags to fire multiple stages, and just carrying them in my left/rear pants pocket. I've only ever had one SO tell me I should take those mags out before running a stage, because, "Y'know, the Rule Book says you can only have two spare magazines on your body at any time. If you want to really follow the rules...." And I'm thinking, "As long as I don't actually use those mags during the stage, what earthly difference does it make?" What I say is, "Okay." And now I don't do that anymore. Because he's right, that is technically the way the Rule Book reads. And I do want to follow the rules. I mean, is there really any point in having rules we ignore?

[Clay1]

3 Glock Hi-caps, one with 11 rounds the other two with 10 if they push the new rule. Better remember which one has 11 and load it first.

I can see the new rule if you want to shoot it like you might carry on the street with a mag in a pocket. The gamer that I AM wants to know where the pockets can be. I could sew one on my belly so I can reload like the open boys in IPSC/USPSA Just kidding, don't get your undies in a bundle.

Rick

[Duane Thomas]

3 Glock Hi-caps, one with 11 rounds the other two with 10 if they push the new rule. Better remember which one has 11 and load it first.

What new rule is that? I wasn't aware you could ever have more than 10 rounds in a mag (?). Thus the whole "Barney mag" phenomenon even for those us running downloaded highcaps.

[jkelly]

I mean, is there really any point in having rules we ignore?

---Duane Thomas

I think that there is a certain practicality involved with interpreting a poorly written or incompletely thought out rule. Using a "barney" is the most efficient and safe way to ensure that your gun is fully loaded.

Retaining the "barney" mag is safer then diverting the SOs attention while handing it to them. For a 4 Stage match with 6 strings and 25 shooters this is 150 times that the SO's attention is diverted.

I think that the mag limit rule is almost universally ignored (that is carrying a barney mag, not shooting extra mags) as I've never seen a club that would not allow a "barney" mag.

So, in at least in this case, there is a point in ignoring the rule(s) we have.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[revchuck]

What new rule is that? I wasn't aware you could ever have more than 10 rounds in a mag (?). Thus the whole "Barney mag" phenomenon even for those us running downloaded highcaps.

Duane - You can't have more than ten in the mag after the beep. There has never been a rule (AFAIK) against using a standard capacity mag loaded to max plus one for the LAMR mag. I've been an SO since '99. The hangup comes when the shooter forgets which one it is.

I know USPSA had an issue with that for Production, which they fixed in the latest rulebook. Maybe that's what you're thinking about?

[kdmoore]

We don't care how many mags you have on you as long as you only go to the two legal mags in the legal positions on your belt during the stage.

For years I was in the habit of loading up enough mags to fire multiple stages, and just carrying them in my left/rear pants pocket. I've only ever had one SO tell me I should take those mags out before running a stage, because, "Y'know, the Rule Book says you can only have two spare magazines on your body at any time. If you want to really follow the rules...." And I'm thinking, "As long as I don't actually use those mags during the stage, what earthly difference does it make?" What I say is, "Okay." And now I don't do that anymore. Because he's right, that is technically the way the Rule Book reads. And I do want to follow the rules. I mean, is there really any point in having rules we ignore?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

During one of my first classifiers I put on a couple of extra mag carriers and positioned them in the small of my back. Had the SO tell me it was against the rules. I talked him into it, and have done so ever since. I was too green at the moment to realize what he might have been doing, but to this day I wonder if he was a.) Range Nazi b.)jesting c.) using a teaching moment. Don't think it was a, as I would never have been able to convince him otherwise.

[Duane Thomas]

At my IDPA club the perception has always been that you have to use the Barney mag, you can't just insert a mag with 11 and rack the slide. I'll be the first to admit though, that may well be reading into the rules instead of actually a rule. I guess it doesn't really matter to me - I'm so used to my LAMR ritual from USPSA, I just do the same thing in IDPA.

[Ted Murphy]

I shot at a club a short while ago that said if you use a magazine with 11 to load and make ready and do not inform the SO the mag had 11, you get a procedural.

I thought it odd (and wrong) but when in rome......

As an SO I will usually ask if they topped off, but that is to make sure they don't screw themselves and not because I am trying to gig anyone.

Ted

[Jim Watson]

In CDP I approach a stage with a barney clip and a loaded magazine in my left pants pocket, two loaded magazines on my belt.

If there are two stages or strings shot back-to-back in the same bay, I bring the required additional ammo in my left hip pocket. After the first go-round, I shuffle the reserves to get back to normal distribution with the fresh magazines. Empties go in the right front pants pocket. That way I don't have to run around looking for my range bag. I have never had this questioned or penalized.

If there is one of those Tac Load and Retrieve stages, I put the used barney clip in a different pocket after loading. I haven't mastered the waistband stowage trick yet, so a Tac Load partial goes in my side pants pocket. Can't count on a vest pocket not flopping out of position.

I have shot SSP with full size magazines, 11 in the first one. I just tell the SO "That's 10 +1." and expect him to get on with his work. I have not had anybody give me any static over it.