.223 out to 600 yards

[Tmcfarland]

On 9/13/2016 at 8:14 AM, dauntedfuture said:

if you are working up loads for .223, you need to work in .2-.3g increments, 1g is way too much.  try 24g of RL15, TAC, or Varget and see what happens, then "test to try to improve, I doubt there will be much improvement.

My thinking on that was i figure it will be between 25 and 26 grain or 2800 top 2900 fps range but hoping for the most economical load. I see most posts are around the velocity here and other places with a 18" 1:8 barrel. My 55gr loads are at 24 grains and run just shy of 3000 fps and group well. I do have some varget but just 1 pound and have 14 of CFE223 so working it up first. 24 grains of varget will put me right at 2800 fps so should be close

[Boxerglocker]

20 minutes ago, Tmcfarland said:

My thinking on that was i figure it will be between 25 and 26 grain or 2800 top 2900 fps range but hoping for the most economical load. I see most posts are around the velocity here and other places with a 18" 1:8 barrel. My 55gr loads are at 24 grains and run just shy of 3000 fps and group well. I do have some varget but just 1 pound and have 14 of CFE223 so working it up first. 24 grains of varget will put me right at 2800 fps so should be close

Personal experience, bad idea using velocity at your initial indicator when developing loads. I work up for accuracy first, then if all goes well check and see if the velocity is acceptable, move to the next accuracy load if required. All guns are different and velocities given in manuals can be very ambiguous. What point is an economical load if the accuracy is unacceptable?

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Boxerglocker

[Tmcfarland]

New to loading for rifle really, worked up my close range fairly quick and was happy with them. I am test firing the ones I built this evening and we will see how they go and move from there. When I did the 55gr loads I did .2 grain increments and just didn't really see much change between them until I got closer to almost 1 grain. So cut to the chase and start at 1 grain and work backwards. 

 

[Boxerglocker]

Just now, Tmcfarland said:

New to loading for rifle really, worked up my close range fairly quick and was happy with them. I am test firing the ones I built this evening and we will see how they go and move from there. When I did the 55gr loads I did .2 grain increments and just didn't really see much change between them until I got closer to almost 1 grain. So cut to the chase and start at 1 grain and work backwards. 

 

Keep in mind that powder charge to velocity is not linear. You can easily reach a point of diminishing returns and not know it. 0.3 is a good spread.

[Tmcfarland]

thanks, I will be watching for that

[dauntedfuture]

If you are working with 68-69g bullets in a 20" barrel for 600 yds you will not get 2900 fps.  if you are testing powder charges you need to have 200, 300 yds, is better to do so.  Testing ammo at 50 yds for LR accuracy is a waste of powder and barrel.  About all you can do at 50 is check for stability.   

 

You need to achieve an acceptable level of accuracy, velocity and ES of your ammunition.  For example, no matter how accurate the load is, at a certain point you will not be supersonic.  also, no matter how accurate your load is, if your ES is not acceptable, you will have elevation problems.  I would pick a 1 MOA load with an ES of 10 all day over a 1/4 MOA load with an ES of 50.  50 FPS for .223/.308 is about a minute at 600 and 2 Minutes at 1000 or so I think. 

[Tmcfarland]

1 hour ago, dauntedfuture said:

If you are working with 68-69g bullets in a 20" barrel for 600 yds you will not get 2900 fps.  if you are testing powder charges you need to have 200, 300 yds, is better to do so.  Testing ammo at 50 yds for LR accuracy is a waste of powder and barrel.  About all you can do at 50 is check for stability.   

 

You need to achieve an acceptable level of accuracy, velocity and ES of your ammunition.  For example, no matter how accurate the load is, at a certain point you will not be supersonic.  also, no matter how accurate your load is, if your ES is not acceptable, you will have elevation problems.  I would pick a 1 MOA load with an ES of 10 all day over a 1/4 MOA load with an ES of 50.  50 FPS for .223/.308 is about a minute at 600 and 2 Minutes at 1000 or so I think. 

AR rifle has already been sighted in and do have a 200 yard range, hoping to get a good grouping at 200 and I found a place I will go to in a couple of weeks that goes way farther than a 223 will reach. According to Vortex LRBC on their website even at 2600 fps the round should stay supersonic out to around 800 yards. I have a Chronograph so I will report all the data later

[dauntedfuture]

Good luck.  If you really want to shoot at 600-800, and you want a magazine length bullet, I suggest you try a sierra 69-77 TMK, Hornady 75 or a 77g offering from Lapua or Berger or Sierra.  All will work better then a 68g Hornady. 

[Boxerglocker]

2 minutes ago, dauntedfuture said:

Good luck.  If you really want to shoot at 600-800, and you want a magazine length bullet, I suggest you try a sierra 69-77 TMK, Hornady 75 or a 77g offering from Lapua or Berger or Sierra.  All will work better then a 68g Hornady. 

I run a 69g Nosler Competition HPBT in my 3Gun AR for long distance stages. I use standard metal GI mags with those loads because you can load them longer than when using PMAGS.

[Tmcfarland]

1 hour ago, Boxerglocker said:

I run a 69g Nosler Competition HPBT in my 3Gun AR for long distance stages. I use standard metal GI mags with those loads because you can load them longer than when using PMAGS.

how much longer? I hadn't thought of that.

[Tmcfarland]

1 hour ago, dauntedfuture said:

Good luck.  If you really want to shoot at 600-800, and you want a magazine length bullet, I suggest you try a sierra 69-77 TMK, Hornady 75 or a 77g offering from Lapua or Berger or Sierra.  All will work better then a 68g Hornady. 

Thanks, we will see tonight how they do. Came across a heck of a good deal on the 68 grain Hornady so that is why I have them. Couldn't pass em up

[Boxerglocker]

21 minutes ago, Tmcfarland said:

how much longer? I hadn't thought of that.

OAL around 2.290 - 2.300, honestly I don't recall because I measure off the ogive.

[TonytheTiger]

ASC stainless mags will let you load to 2.31. A cut mag will probably let you go 2.35. I don't load any long range ammo to 2.26 anymore.

[dauntedfuture]

I have experimented with loading ammo for GI mags vs steel vs p mags vs cut front and with a bullet that's intended for magazine length it does not matter.  That extra .01 or .02 will not make a difference.  Federal GM is good shooting stuff and its loaded "short" and shoots great.  The truth is that Load Tolerant Bullets (LTB) are not significantly affected by OAL.  If you seated a, say 77g-whatever out so it was .005 off the lands vs magazine length about the only thing you would do is it would allow slightly more velocity with more powder for possibly less pressure.  My advice to shooters backed by years of NRA HP competition is that unless your shooting VLD bullets, seating LTB or other "normal" bullets close to the lands rarely produces statistically and significantly smaller groups.  What happens more often is that you start running out of bullet in the neck which reduces neck tension which increases your SD and ES. 

or to put this tangent all another way and tie this back to the 68g Hornady bullets, seat them to whatever magazine length.  if you must shoot them, play with powder and primers.  I would start with 24.2g of RL15 and a 7 1/2, but that's just me. 

 

[TonytheTiger]

But a cut magazine will allow you to run a 75gr Amax in an AR, and that is a huge step up in BC from the LTB bullets.

[bushmeat]

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 9:22 AM, LSnSC said:

TAC is what I use for long range 223 loads under a 75 Hornady or 77 SMK.  It works equally well with the 68 -69 grain bullets. I tried CFE 223 and got decent speeds, but never found a load that that was really accurate out of my rifle.

We push the 223 heavies out pretty far in some local DM and Precision matches. 7-800 is pretty easy once you have good dope and wind holds. This is out of 18" 1-8 twist AR's. The pic is a 600 yd group out of an AR built by Apache Machine.  20" Kreiger 1-7.7" twist, 77 SMK over TAC in LC brass lit by a BR4.

 

That's an awesome group.

[Tmcfarland]

Took my rifle out but did not get to use the 200 yard range, to crowded and was running out of daylight. I was stuck at using a 60 yd bay so I set up and was really shocked at the grouping. At this point I am just really interested in what the chronograph will report. I am no bullseye shooter by any means but come on! Let's here the bantering begin. All 5 shot groups
23 grains at 60 yards 68 gr HPBT running 2538fps

24 grains running at 2644fps
25 grains running at 2732fps
26 grains running at 2913fps
Just to make sure the rifle was still on I shot a group of my close range rounds 55 grain running at 2830fps
I need some help!


Thanks

[TonytheTiger]

What size is the grid on the targets?

[Tmcfarland]

I think they are supposed to be 1/2" but they are a little bigger after printing out

 

[TonytheTiger]

Not sure why but my 68gr loads tightened up considerably when I switched to a magnum primer. It still wasn't grouping awesome but it was definitely an improvement. 

[orangeman711]

69gr. SMK HPBT over 24.5 gr. of Ramshot TAC has worked well for me. Good luck.

 

[NuJudge]

Ballistically, if you are going to shoot 600 yards, you'd do well to go with a longer-than-mag length load.  Starting about 1994, I saw some people competing with 69's all the way to 600.  I still see some people with the Sierra 77s and short Hornady 75's shooting all the way to 600, but most I see are shooting 80's and 90s at 600.  

A few links worth studying.  First, the New Jersey Highpower website has a link in the upper left ("Reloading Stuph"):  

http://www.njhighpower.com  

Sierra's data for the .223 in the AR:  

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf  

John Holliger made one of my uppers, and his recommended data is terrific:  

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/info-reloading.htm

 

[Boxerglocker]

On 9/17/2016 at 2:51 PM, Tmcfarland said:

I need some help!

I think they are supposed to be 1/2" but they are a little bigger after printing out

 

The absolute worse thing you can do when developing a load is rush... if you don't have the 100/200 range you need available, the time you need to properly test for groups is wasted... hold off and wait. Make time later, right now you have a bunch of arbitrary data that frankly is not usable.

I would suggest starting from scratch, beginning with your case prep.... sorted LC brass all the same head stamp if possible. Full length size and trim to minimum. Load 5 rounds each at 0.3 increments. Looking at you pictures and notes, you definitely skipped an accuracy node probably a low and high one. 

What powder are you actually using for these?

[Tmcfarland]

Ballistically, if you are going to shoot 600 yards, you'd do well to go with a longer-than-mag length load.  Starting about 1994, I saw some people competing with 69's all the way to 600.  I still see some people with the Sierra 77s and short Hornady 75's shooting all the way to 600, but most I see are shooting 80's and 90s at 600.  

A few links worth studying.  First, the New Jersey Highpower website has a link in the upper left ("Reloading Stuph"):  

http://www.njhighpower.com  

Sierra's data for the .223 in the AR:  

http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf  

John Holliger made one of my uppers, and his recommended data is terrific:  

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/info-reloading.htm

 

Thanks for the links, this is for ar15 magazine fed ammo to be used in a multigun competition. There is a ton of good reading on those links.


Thanks

[Tmcfarland]

4 minutes ago, Boxerglocker said:

The absolute worse thing you can do when developing a load is rush... if you don't have the 100/200 range you need available, the time you need to properly test for groups is wasted... hold off and wait. Make time later, right now you have a bunch of arbitrary data that frankly is not usable.

I would suggest starting from scratch, beginning with your case prep.... sorted LC brass all the same head stamp if possible. Full length size and trim to minimum. Load 5 rounds each at 0.3 increments. Looking at you pictures and notes, you definitely skipped an accuracy node probably a low and high one. 

What powder are you actually using for these?

The data I did get from the first batch is basically just velocities, I understand that but I was there smelled gun powder so.... couldn't help myself. I was a little taken by the difference in the groups from each charge though.

Case prep - I did happen to sort the brass for the 20 and had all the same head stamps, wasn't LC though didn't have too many of them. I believe they were all FC Rem 223. All trimmed to 1.750".

Loading - The next sets has been done at .3 increments.

CFE223 (5 each) at 23.7gr, 24gr and 24.3gr COL at 2.235".

Varget (5 each) at 24.3gr, 24.6gr and 24.9gr COL at 2.235".