.223 out to 600 yards

[Boxerglocker]

6 minutes ago, Tmcfarland said:

The data I did get from the first batch is basically just velocities, I understand that but I was there smelled gun powder so.... couldn't help myself. I was a little taken by the difference in the groups from each charge though.

Case prep - I did happen to sort the brass for the 20 and had all the same head stamps, wasn't LC though didn't have too many of them. I believe they were all FC Rem 223. All trimmed to 1.750".

Loading - The next sets has been done at .3 increments.

CFE223 (5 each) at 23.7gr, 24gr and 24.3gr COL at 2.235".

Varget (5 each) at 24.3gr, 24.6gr and 24.9gr COL at 2.235".  

 

You asked for help, so I'll be blunt... until you get a supply of decent once fired LC brass. I would stop wasting powder and effort. You want a 650 yard load which you'll be pushing on the upper extremes in regards to case pressures. FC is decent .223 commercial brass but for your intended application I would not use it.

I also noticed you had another thread in regards to some bullet impression issues you were having. I recall you stating your loading on a 650, what sizing dies and what trimming method are you using?

[Tmcfarland]

29 minutes ago, Boxerglocker said:

You asked for help, so I'll be blunt... until you get a supply of decent once fired LC brass. I would stop wasting powder and effort. You want a 650 yard load which you'll be pushing on the upper extremes in regards to case pressures. FC is decent .223 commercial brass but for your intended application I would not use it.

I also noticed you had another thread in regards to some bullet impression issues you were having. I recall you stating your loading on a 650, what sizing dies and what trimming method are you using?

using Dillon trim/size die mounted with the Titan brass trim adapter and a Bosch motor, and then using the expander ball on the dillon size die to open the neck up

Edited September 19, 2016 by Tmcfarland

[Boxerglocker]

1 hour ago, Tmcfarland said:

using Dillon trim/size die mounted with the Titan brass trim adapter and a Bosch motor, and then using the expander ball on the dillon size die to open the neck up

I have tried doing the expander ball in the past and found the Lyman M die does a much better job of giving more consistent neck tensions when processing my brass. Just setting the M die to where it just expands the neck and not to bell the mouth for BT bullets. When processing for flat base bullets you adjust for a slight bell. Either significantly eases required seating force.

[Tmcfarland]

7 minutes ago, Boxerglocker said:

I have tried doing the expander ball in the past and found the Lyman M die does a much better job of giving more consistent neck tensions when processing my brass. Just setting the M die to where it just expands the neck and not to bell the mouth for BT bullets. When processing for flat base bullets you adjust for a slight bell. Either significantly eases required seating force.

 

 

i have the Lyman M die on order and should be here soon. Found a chip on the expander ball and the replacements cost almost as much as the whole M die.

 

[Boxerglocker]

55 minutes ago, Tmcfarland said:

i have the Lyman M die on order and should be here soon. Found a chip on the expander ball and the replacements cost almost as much as the whole M die.

 

If that is a Dillon die, it's warrantied for life.

[Tmcfarland]

2 hours ago, Boxerglocker said:

You asked for help, so I'll be blunt... until you get a supply of decent once fired LC brass. I would stop wasting powder and effort.

I will sort through and see how many I can dig up, no guarantee that they are once fired but at least they will be LC.

[Tmcfarland]

Went to the range last night to shoot the next batch, here are the results;

1. Description: 24.3 CFE223, COL 2.235", Temp: 92 °F, BP: 28.97 inHg, Altitude: 25.00, Average: 2712.2 FPS, Group Size (in): 1.51" without the flyer it was .721"

2. Description: 24 CFE223, COL 2.235", Temp: 92 °F, BP: 28.97 inHg, Altitude: 25.00, Average: 2671.2 FPS, Group Size (in): 2.50"

Question; as I was trying to line up on the target I realized I can't see the target or where I placed the previous round very well. Just how close should I expect to get if I am just guessing at where I had aimed the shot before? Is there a favorite type of target y'all use to make it easier to replicate the previous shot?

The targets are 6" x 8", trying to replicate a full size target at 600 but placed at 200. Just trying to get the picture in my head. Getting closer but still have some work to do, ordered some Ramshot Tac and some 77 gr SMK. We will see how they do! Going to build a few more using the CFE223, bump it up a little faster and try to close the gap. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Tmcfarland

[Nathan]

For grouping, ignore where the last shot was placed (assuming it's on paper). Your zero is less important than the size of the group, you don't want to start chasing your shots. I typically try to not only place my crosshair in the same spot, but try to find something around the perimeter of the target to use as a second index to verify I'm not changing cant, etc. If the fine crosshair on your target is too hard to see you can try stick-on fluorescent dots, I've seeen many styles, most places that sell hunting equipment/targets will have them.


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[Dannybot]

What twist and chamber is your barrel?  I have been playing with the 68 gr Hornady in my SBR hoping to get out to 450 yards.  I currently can get out to 350-400 with M193, but with a 10" barrel the velocity get low enough thqt the afternoon wind really pushes the 55 gr bullets.

I have manag d to get decent velocity with the 68 gr, but not great grouping yet....

[Tmcfarland]

31 minutes ago, Nathan said:

For grouping, ignore where the last shot was placed (assuming it's on paper). Your zero is less important than the size of the group, you don't want to start chasing your shots. I typically try to not only place my crosshair in the same spot, but try to find something around the perimeter of the target to use as a second index to verify I'm not changing cant, etc. If the fine crosshair on your target is too hard to see you can try stick-on fluorescent dots, I've seeen many styles, most places that sell hunting equipment/targets will have them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kind of my thoughts too, I try to hold in the same place but had to ask the question; just how good can you group with a 6x scope? I am playing around with some ideas on making a target that works well with the Razor JM reticle, like you said some perimeter markings for a second reference.

[Tmcfarland]

5 minutes ago, Dannybot said:

What twist and chamber is your barrel?  I have been playing with the 68 gr Hornady in my SBR hoping to get out to 450 yards.  I currently can get out to 350-400 with M193, but with a 10" barrel the velocity get low enough thqt the afternoon wind really pushes the 55 gr bullets.

I have manag d to get decent velocity with the 68 gr, but not great grouping yet....

I have an 18" 1:8 twist 223 Wylde chamber

[Nathan]

Same reticle/scope I have... I'm no pro, but at 200 yards with the right ammo I've turned in groups under an inch, but am happy with anything under 2" with that scope at that range. Typically, though, I throw a higher magnification scope on my rifles during load development just to make my job easier. With a 20x scope at 200 that "under an inch" can be about half the size and much more consistent. For competition practice I always use my 1-6, though.
Probably goes without saying, but the illumination will do you no favors when shooting for groups.


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[Tmcfarland]

1 hour ago, Nathan said:

With a 20x scope at 200 that "under an inch" can be about half the size and much more consistent. For competition practice I always use my 1-6, though.
Probably goes without saying, but the illumination will do you no favors when shooting for groups.

Was thinking the same thing with the higher powered scope for the development stage but don't have one right now.

 

[Tmcfarland]

On September 19, 2016 at 0:46 PM, Boxerglocker said:

If that is a Dillon die, it's warrantied for life.

Its a dillon alright but was told today that the primer pin and ball were consumables; what a bummer

[Boxerglocker]

16 hours ago, Tmcfarland said:

Went to the range last night to shoot the next batch, here are the results;

1. Description: 24.3 CFE223, COL 2.235", Temp: 92 °F, BP: 28.97 inHg, Altitude: 25.00, Average: 2712.2 FPS, Group Size (in): 1.51" without the flyer it was .721"

2. Description: 24 CFE223, COL 2.235", Temp: 92 °F, BP: 28.97 inHg, Altitude: 25.00, Average: 2671.2 FPS, Group Size (in): 2.50"

Question; as I was trying to line up on the target I realized I can't see the target or where I placed the previous round very well. Just how close should I expect to get if I am just guessing at where I had aimed the shot before? Is there a favorite type of target y'all use to make it easier to replicate the previous shot?

The targets are 6" x 8", trying to replicate a full size target at 600 but placed at 200. Just trying to get the picture in my head. Getting closer but still have some work to do, ordered some Ramshot Tac and some 77 gr SMK. We will see how they do! Going to build a few more using the CFE223, bump it up a little faster and try to close the gap. 

Forget about trying to simulate a 600 yard target at 200 yards for now... just develop your load and test at 100 yards. It makes everything easier... your going to be using your dope and/or reticle as a reference when you get out to 500-600 anyways. The key is to have a definitive target when group testing use the exact same point of POA and concentrate on your technique. I use these types of targets when group testing. I aim at the corners of the solid squares aligning my vertical / horizontal grid lines. This 5 shot group was a Nosler 55BT load pushed with H335 at 100 yards, it included the cold bore shot. The caliper reading was just for reference at the time I took the picture on the range, final measurement was .231 MOA

Edited September 21, 2016 by Boxerglocker

[Tmcfarland]

OK now i feel like I have so much more to learn. That is some really good shooting! I will get me a better target and try that approach. Thanks for all your help, hopefully the nest report will have some better results.

[Tmcfarland]

last night outing just wasn't good at all! The shots were everywhere, don't know really if i was just rushing it or if i just suck, lol! Did use all Lake City brass this time and had some single digit deviations which I thought would make for some better groupings but I was wrong, tried to take pictures but my phone decided not to embarrass me on a public forum. Really just about ready to go buy some of the good stuff and try later, much later. Received the Lyman M die yesterday and will use it to make another batch of the 68's before I give up on the CFE223 powder. Still waiting for the other stuff to come in

[Boxerglocker]

15 hours ago, Tmcfarland said:

last night outing just wasn't good at all! The shots were everywhere, don't know really if i was just rushing it or if i just suck, lol! Did use all Lake City brass this time and had some single digit deviations which I thought would make for some better groupings but I was wrong, tried to take pictures but my phone decided not to embarrass me on a public forum. Really just about ready to go buy some of the good stuff and try later, much later. Received the Lyman M die yesterday and will use it to make another batch of the 68's before I give up on the CFE223 powder. Still waiting for the other stuff to come in

Patience Bud, patience... you should have just waited for that M die to show get your case prep right and consistent. I personally think your below a accuracy node at 24.0-24.3 and should hit a node the 24.8 to 25.5 mark but that is just me.

Hornady #9 data with a 68gr Hornady BTHP using CFE223, OAL as 2.250" here is what they list:
22.5gr - 2500 fps
23.5gr - 2600 fps
24.4gr - 2700 fps
25.4gr - 2800 fps
26.3gr - 2900 fps
CFE223 is the only powder listed under the 2900 fps line, all others stop at 2800 fps. Your going to want that 2800 velocity going out to 500-600 yards.

 

[Tmcfarland]

1 hour ago, Boxerglocker said:

Patience Bud, patience... you should have just waited for that M die to show get your case prep right and consistent. I personally think your below a accuracy node at 24.0-24.3 and should hit a node the 24.8 to 25.5 mark but that is just me.

Hornady #9 data with a 68gr Hornady BTHP using CFE223, OAL as 2.250" here is what they list:
22.5gr - 2500 fps
23.5gr - 2600 fps
24.4gr - 2700 fps
25.4gr - 2800 fps
26.3gr - 2900 fps
CFE223 is the only powder listed under the 2900 fps line, all others stop at 2800 fps. Your going to want that 2800 velocity going out to 500-600 yards.

 

I had the one load at 26 grains but it did not look too good. That gave me 2913 fps as my average. I will do another batch using the "M" die at those velocities and see how they work out

 

[mlmiller1]

Remember some guns will just not shoot some bullet/powder combinations.  Fact of life.  

[bushmeat]

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 5:04 PM, Tmcfarland said:

Went to the range last night to shoot the next batch, here are the results;

1. Description: 24.3 CFE223, COL 2.235", Temp: 92 °F, BP: 28.97 inHg, Altitude: 25.00, Average: 2712.2 FPS, Group Size (in): 1.51" without the flyer it was .721"

The targets are 6" x 8", trying to replicate a full size target at 600 but placed at 200. Just trying to get the picture in my head. Getting closer but still have some work to do, ordered some Ramshot Tac and some 77 gr SMK. We will see how they do! Going to build a few more using the CFE223, bump it up a little faster and try to close the gap. 

Why aren't you happy with this load? Even with the "flyer" it is less than 1 MOA at 200 yards. I would call this good.

[Tmcfarland]

27 minutes ago, bushmeat said:

Why aren't you happy with this load? Even with the "flyer" it is less than 1 MOA at 200 yards. I would call this good.

Normally I would, but couldn't duplicate it. I think I might have just got lucky. 

[Tmcfarland]

Well, went down to the local Academy and bought some Hornady 75gr HPBT MATCH ammo to shoot so I can see how it shoots out and I found I am way too hard on myself about my loading if this is the norm. Not to knock Hornady but come on! Set me straight if I am headed down the wrong path please, but with the COAL variance of .022" between 20 rounds, I kick mine back if it is more than .003" difference. The cases all measured the same and looked good but I am very interested in seeing how these MATCH rounds chrono and group.

Also, got the Hornady head space gauge and M die in and will build some more rounds tonight. I have been over processing my brass according to the head space gauge so I will reset the size die to just bump the shoulder about .004 to .006 as suggested by others. Another question that I have is since the M die opens up the neck to .221" or so and the projectiles are .222" or so will I need to crimp more? I just barely bump the edge now. 

[Boxerglocker]

On 9/24/2016 at 11:16 AM, Tmcfarland said:

Well, went down to the local Academy and bought some Hornady 75gr HPBT MATCH ammo to shoot so I can see how it shoots out and I found I am way too hard on myself about my loading if this is the norm. Not to knock Hornady but come on! Set me straight if I am headed down the wrong path please, but with the COAL variance of .022" between 20 rounds, I kick mine back if it is more than .003" difference. The cases all measured the same and looked good but I am very interested in seeing how these MATCH rounds chrono and group.

Also, got the Hornady head space gauge and M die in and will build some more rounds tonight. I have been over processing my brass according to the head space gauge so I will reset the size die to just bump the shoulder about .004 to .006 as suggested by others. Another question that I have is since the M die opens up the neck to .221" or so and the projectiles are .222" or so will I need to crimp more? I just barely bump the edge now. 

I only lightly crimp my 55g FMJs to lightly crimp smooth the bell from the M die, 69g Nosler competitions I do the same.

[Tmcfarland]

1 hour ago, Boxerglocker said:

to lightly crimp smooth the bell from the M die

do you use the bell? I had noticed in the instructions for the die it had said something about not using the bell for BT rifle bullets. I would assume that the only thing that adds would be over working the brass a little. Not too big of a deal since I use mostly range brass I pick up