1100 Woes

[Garrett]

I went to a local bowling pin shoot last night. They usually just do revolvers & pistols. But this week they went with shotguns as well. Club rules require #4 buckshot or larger. All I could find locally was some full-powered Remington 00 Buck.

I don't believe I have ever shot that particular ammo through my gun, but I did not anticipate any problems. But when I started shooting, the gun would malfunction on nearly every shot. It would eject the empty hull, but it would fail to load the next shell.

The only other ammo I had with me were the 6 shells on the sidesaddls. These were Federal "reduced recoil" 00 Buck. I loaded with these and then the rest with the Rem ammo. The first 6 shots fed and functioned fine, but as soon as I shot one of the full-powered loads, it failed to feed the next round again.

I was able to borrow some reduced loads from some of the other shooters, and finish the match. These all ran fine as well.

So why would a gas operated gun fail to cycle with full-powered loads (more gas) but run just fine with reduced loads (less gas)?

[cking]

IF you bought the gun used it may have been modified to run on light loads. Gas port size or spring. Use a drill to measure the port size and somebody can probably tell ya the default size.

[D.Hayden]

Isn't it (about) .085"? I just drilled mine to .0925, I know some that went way past that..

[Baker]

I went to a local bowling pin shoot last night.  They usually just do revolvers & pistols.  But this week they went with shotguns as well.  Club rules require #4 buckshot or larger.  All I could find locally was some full-powered Remington 00 Buck. 

I don't believe I have ever shot that particular ammo through my gun, but I did not anticipate any problems.  But when I started shooting, the gun would malfunction on nearly every shot.  It would eject the empty hull, but it would fail to load the next shell. 

The only other ammo I had with me were the 6 shells on the sidesaddls.  These were Federal "reduced recoil" 00 Buck.  I loaded with these and then the rest with the Rem ammo.  The first 6 shots fed and functioned fine, but as soon as I shot one of the full-powered loads, it failed to feed the next round again. 

I was able to borrow some reduced loads from some of the other shooters, and finish the match.  These all ran fine as well.

So why would a gas operated gun fail to cycle with full-powered loads (more gas) but run just fine with reduced loads (less gas)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[George]

.080 is stock (approx). If the reduced buck loads handle the pins well, just shoot that. My 11-87 is modified for lite loads and it will not always function with full power stuff now.

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Regards,

[Baker]

Good Morning, Glad to see your ?, Mine did the same thing, remember I thought the speed ramp was bad, but no. Anyway I went out this am and mine did the same thing as yours. The bolt would hold back and not feed. I know my gun has standard size gas holes and has just recently been rebuilt. It will run #4 or #5 all day long, no #00 Be interested to see whot you find out. Hate to see this stick become a Bennelli. Buck?

I went to a local bowling pin shoot last night.  They usually just do revolvers & pistols.  But this week they went with shotguns as well.  Club rules require #4 buckshot or larger.  All I could find locally was some full-powered Remington 00 Buck. 

I don't believe I have ever shot that particular ammo through my gun, but I did not anticipate any problems.  But when I started shooting, the gun would malfunction on nearly every shot.  It would eject the empty hull, but it would fail to load the next shell. 

The only other ammo I had with me were the 6 shells on the sidesaddls.  These were Federal "reduced recoil" 00 Buck.  I loaded with these and then the rest with the Rem ammo.  The first 6 shots fed and functioned fine, but as soon as I shot one of the full-powered loads, it failed to feed the next round again. 

I was able to borrow some reduced loads from some of the other shooters, and finish the match.  These all ran fine as well.

So why would a gas operated gun fail to cycle with full-powered loads (more gas) but run just fine with reduced loads (less gas)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kurtm]

PLease don't take this as a "poke" at the grand old 1100/1187, but when a Benelli fails in this way it is the other way around . I think I would look to the magazine spring on this one. I know that 1100s are fairly sensitive in this reguard, or at least Colt1991s' is. With full recoil stuff the inertia may be pulling the shell forward just enough to not allow the spring in the tube to eject the shell hard enough to hit the bolt release tab on the carrier/speedfeed. On an other note.....this will be a direct jab at the 1100 ( since I've been so good lately) most of the posts in this shotgun section start with "MY 1100/1187 WON'T WORK/ RUN/ IS BROKEN" Next most common is "MY Browning/Winchester WON'T WORK/ RUN/...ah well you get the idea! I am not just joking here just look back! KURTM

[EricW]

This will sound goofy, but have you thought about removing your o-ring? The extra blowby may reduce the piston speed enough to settle things down.

[Garrett]

With full recoil stuff the inertia may be pulling the shell forward just enough to not allow the spring in the tube to eject the shell hard enough to hit the bolt release tab on the carrier/speedfeed.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. It's not that it's locking the bolt open, and not releasing it. It will eject the empty, but not pick up a new shell. It will cycle, but not chamber a round. (figure "Bang", "click", <curse>, hand cycle, "bang"). It's not feeding the next round out of the magazine.

Is it possible that it's cycling the bolt too fast, and it doesn't have time to pick up the next round? Where the light loads would have less bolt speed, and more time to feed the next round?

I dunno.

[EricW]

It's not feeding the next round out of the magazine. 

I think Kurt nailed it. Why not try a new magazine spring.

[Larry White]

I think its the mag spring, recoil is bouncing the rds in the tube before the latch opens up. If I had one that would only run soft loads I would be tickled to death, usually the other way around.----Larry

[ErikW]

Please peruse the bazillion other topics about similar problems with 1100s.

[George]

Agreed that the mag spring may be the culprit. With the mag spring inserted fully into the tube, there should be over 10" of spring left showing, preferably 12-14 and maybe a little more is OK too. Mine runs 100% with 17" of free spring length past the mag tube length. More will be better with stout loads. Do not stretch the spring to increase free length. Just get an oversize one from Grams Engineering and trim to fit/work.

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Regards,

[Larry White]

wow George, thats a lot of spring. Have ant room left for shells?-----Larry

[George]

The one I just took out had 19" of free length and would just bind as the tenth round was inserted (USPSA legal spring!). The Grams one I recently replaced it with is just under 17" sticking out uncompressed and I can now almost get 11 shells in, It's only about 3/8 shy of one more round ;-( Gotta find a shorter shell ;-)

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Regards,

[wsimpso1]

I hate to hear about M1100's not working. I worked at Ilion for a while...

If your M1100 is not feeding shells from the mag, it is time for a new mag spring.

If your M1100 is feeding shells from the mag, but not tripping the bolt to close it, you might need a new mag spring, but more likely you either need to install a 3" Carrier Assembly or tune the carrier for snagging the shell. Both topics are talked about in Pat Sweeny's book. The heavy load - shell on the carrier malfunction is most likely fixed with a 3" Carrier.

The carrier with the little latch built in was developed for selective fire military shotguns and and also works great on heavier loads. I don't remember exactly why it makes a difference, but it does, and should be on all action shotguns. If I can remember, I will find out and add it to this thread.

The position of the carrier and its tabs is sensitive to the stack up of part dimensions in the gun, and can put a tab into interference with shell as it comes aft, sucking up the energy that is supposed to open the carrier latch. Sweeny detailed how to check these out and fix them too. I will read that section again and see if there is something to help you.

More later.

Billski

[Garrett]

Please peruse the bazillion other topics about similar problems with 1100s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry. (I was wondering how long it would take someone to suggest that). While I did try searching, I didn't find anything relating to my specific problem.

I do have an 8 rd. extension. I might try the spring from the 10 rd. tube in the 8 rd. tube. That would seem to be the easiest way to see if more spring would cure the problem.

I think I might also try my other barrel and see if that makes any kind of difference.

Thanks for the suggestions

[ipscron2000]

Garrett

My GS told me that my problems with my 1100 are probably coming from the fact that someone before me had put a 20 ga. carrier assembly in my 12 ga. He tweaked what I had, but I havent't had a chance to fire the gun yet to see if it runs. You might want to replace your carrier assembly. If mine doesn't run, I'll replace mine.

[wsimpso1]

Hey Garrett,

Sorry about my last post being off topic. If I get you right, you fire the piece, the bolt locks open, but no shell leaves the magazine?

First, when was the last time you dropped the trigger group and magazine, looked at the feed and intercepter latches, and cleaned all of the junk out of there? If there is crud under the feed latch, it could be restricting movement just enough to let some rounds past and not others based on size of the rim or the amount of shell movement due to increased recoil...

Next, is the magazine tube and follower clean? While a new mag spring might help, if the mechanism is slowed down by the follower and shells binding on debris, the extra fore and aft movement of the shells in the mag with heavy load recoil could get things out of time. Does your follower run smoothly in the mag tube? Again, the shell movement will be greater with heavier loads and this could get you. I have seen bent mag tubes that hang the follower...

While you are cleaning check that the feed latch (long spring steel shell latch) is staked in place. If loose, get it staked (two minute job for a gun shop with the staking tool). Also clean and check the intercepter latch, which is opposite the feedlatch. These latches are best cleaned with spray solvent and then oil. Make sure that they run smoothly.

Good luck.

Billski

[Garrett]

If I get you right, you fire the piece, the bolt locks open, but no shell leaves the magazine?

No. It cycles fully. It will eject the empty, and the bolt closes. I pull the trigger again and get a 'click'. When I cycle the gun, the chamber is empty. The next shell never came out of the mag tube.

First, when was the last time you dropped the trigger group and magazine, looked at the feed and intercepter latches, and cleaned all of the junk out of there?

I don't think it's that either. I cleaned out the trigger group last fall when I last used the gun. It's just been sitting in the safe all winter.

Next, is the magazine tube and follower clean?

While I haven't visually checked to see that the tube is clean, the follower slides easily in and out, with no hint of binding. But I'll check that too.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep trying.

[wsimpso1]

Geez Garrett, you got an odd one. Most of us would be happy with a gun that shoots light loads well, but we both know that this is weird and is likely to lead to a less benign failure.

The cycle looks like this:

Hammer falls and engages intercepter latch forward of next round (to intercept the second round, preventing feeding two);

The gun fires, gas system operates and drives action bars rearward;

The actions bars have a cam surface that opens the feed latch and allows the first shell to be driven past the latch and onto the carrier;

The action bars finish traveling back and the gun locks open;

The shell travels back and hits the carrier latch;

The carrier latch frees the action bars to be driven closed.

So the problem becomes that when you have heavy loads, somehow no shell gets released, but if everything else is working OK, the bolt should not close without a round being released because the new round is what hits the latch to allow it to close. Either the carrier latch is not catching the carrier (and the gun closes again immediately) or something else is tripping the carrier latch.

It sounds like you have two things wrong at the same time, and I know that while it is possible, it is not likely...

Does your action lock open when shot empty with a standard load? With a heavy load? When operated manually?

When it does this next time, do not open the gun, but (being mindful of your muzzle) roll the gun upside down and see if the next shell up is sitting against the shell latch the way it would be when loaded, or if it is hung up somewhere else, like on the intercepter latch or some feature on the mouth of the mag tube and reciever...

If it is on the shell latch, try a new mag spring. Cheap fix if it works. If it is hung up on the intercepter latch, boy, I don't know what to tell you.

I do have one piece of solid advice - drop the trigger group, and make sure that the shell latch, intercepter latch, carrier latch, and carrier are all moving properly and holding things when they are supposed to. I know that you cleaned it and put it away, but I have done some unusual things when putting a gun back together, and maybe you did.

Instead of abstractly imagining a M1100, I am going to get an 1100 in my hands and work my way through the problem and see if I can figure it out... I will jump on the web with my thoughts. You wouldn't happen to be in SE Michigan, would ya? Three gun shoot at Livingston Gun Club on Sunday - You could shoot the match (use my 1100) and I could look at it there. Maybe we could get some other talent to look.

Billski

[wsimpso1]

Oops. Missouri is to far away for me to look it over for you. Billski.

[DA45acp]

Just get an oversize one from Grams Engineering and trim to fit/work.

George

I have looked at Grams web page and dont see the springs listed. Where did you get yours???

Dale

[D.Hayden]

Just get an oversize one from Grams Engineering and trim to fit/work.

George

I have looked at Grams web page and dont see the springs listed. Where did you get yours???

Dale

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was just looking too... came back to check if I read George's post right... looks like the site has just been refreshed... and isn't quite done yet.

What should the total length be for an 8+1, or is this just trial and error?

[George]

George

I have looked at Grams web page and don't see the springs listed. Where did you get yours???

When I ordered them, I just called him and asked if he had any of dem' dere' springs for a 10 round type tuber? and he said how many you want?

IIRC, they were just under 10 bucks, maybe even less.

Give Beven a call and tell him George sent you ;-)

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Regards,