SC Rule Question

[RickT]

Shooting a club match my wife re-holstered after a string and then, unsure about having a round chambered, removed the gun from the holster to do a press check (this prior to assuming the start position). She was informed by the RO that in a higher level match she would have been DQ'ed. I don't find this in the rules. Specifically,

1. It seems very common following the Make Ready command to load, holster and draw to sight in the targets.

2. In Showdown I've probably seen folks sight in the stage after changing boxes

The RO indicated that a competitor can never unholster a hot gun at other than the start buzzer. I'm fine if this is the rule, but I'd appreciate some clarification for those with more experience.

Thanks!

Edited July 18, 2016 by RickT

[Nimitz]

This is somewhat of a confusing issue .... I'm not aware of any rule which specifically states that you cannot take a sight picture with a loaded gun ... The way I handle it is that I tell the RO I'm going to do some dry fire when I switch boxes in Showdown and get their concurrence before doing it . This way I can't get penalized for doing something they gave me permission to do ....

Given the wide disparity of RO experience you see if you shoot a lot of matches, I simply make it a point to tell or ask permission from the RO if I plan to do anything that is even remotely out of the ordinary to keep me out of trouble

maybe Zack will weigh in here since he just finished updating the new rulebook ...

Edited July 18, 2016 by Nimitz

[hornetx40]

Rule 3.1.2

Sight Pictures: The competitor will have a maximum of two minutes after the Make Ready command to prepare themselves for the run, sight pictures will only be done at this time. Exception would be for the Range Officer to offer additional sight pictures at their discretion.

This rule is under range commands. This is the only rule That has anything to do with it...somewhat. Many shooters will take multiple draws with a loaded gun during the make ready...nothing wrong with that. A lot of rimfire shooters will take a sight picture before each run to set their body then point the gun at the start point. Both are legal.

There is no rule about unholstering a loaded gun. The RO was incorrect.

The important part here is to do like Nimitz said. Let your RO know what you are doing and you will stay out of trouble. I won't touch a gun ....holstered or in a bag at the beginning of a stage until the RO tells me to make ready. That is a rule and to many shooters break it.

[RickT]

Thanks for the responses. I don't shoot USPSA, but I wonder if their rule is different which might have led to some confusion. What surprised me was the certainty of his claim, back up by a USPSA/3-gun competitor (who doesn't usually shoot SC).

[ZackJones]

Shooting a club match my wife re-holstered after a string and then, unsure about having a round chambered, removed the gun from the holster to do a press check (this prior to assuming the start position). She was informed by the RO that in a higher level match she would have been DQ'ed. I don't find this in the rules. Specifically,

1. It seems very common following the Make Ready command to load, holster and draw to sight in the targets.

2. In Showdown I've probably seen folks sight in the stage after changing boxes

The RO indicated that a competitor can never unholster a hot gun at other than the start buzzer. I'm fine if this is the rule, but I'd appreciate some clarification for those with more experience.

Thanks!

The RO is mistaken. hornettx40 cites the rule in question. What I didn't like about it is the "Exception would be for the Range Officer to offer additional sight pictures at their discretion." To me that means on stage 1 the RO could let you take additional sight pictures and on stage 2 he may not allow it. I reworded the rule to read as follows:

5.3.1.2 Sight Pictures: The competitor will have a maximum of two minutes after the Make Ready command to prepare for the run. Sight pictures may be taken during the Make Ready process and while preparing for the next string.

If you guys see anything wrong with it let me know.

[scottlep]

It was totally legal, IF it was a SCSA sanctioned match. If it was not a sanctioned match, then maybe the club has their own rules that cover no loaded sight pictures, etc. If it is an SCSA match, then do yourself a favor and print out the current rules and keep them in your shooters bag, so you can very nicely reeducate an RO if they are making improper calls in the future

Also (here is some personal venting), if it WAS an SCSA sanctioned match and the RO told you this, then cited rules from USPSA or 3gun, then you really should make the MD of the match aware. Not that you are trying to be a jerk or a tattle-tale, but if an RO does not know the rules of the sanctioning body of the match he is ROing then he shouldn't call (or warn) of a DQ and should be asked to make himself aware of the rules before ROing another SCSA match. I personally have shot many matches where an RO cites an IDPA, USPSA or some other rule which they made up because they though they were doing the right thing, but is 100% wrong in their call. It can really disrupt a shooter's flow when the shooter is now thinking about a bad call rather than just being able to shoot and stay in his/her zone.

Edited July 18, 2016 by scottlep

[hornetx40]

5.3.1.2 Sight Pictures: The competitor will have a maximum of two minutes after the Make Ready command to prepare for the run. Sight pictures may be taken during the Make Ready process and while preparing for the next string.

If you guys see anything wrong with it let me know.

Zach Your change to the rule is good.

I was told that the old rule was written that way because some shooters would take 2 minutes on every run of a stage. I haven't seen this much in the last 5 years.

[ZackJones]

I was told that the old rule was written that way because some shooters would take 2 minutes on every run of a stage. I haven't seen this much in the last 5 years.

I don't think this is a problem these days. At FL State the Super Squad caught the squad ahead of it at least once.

[Nimitz]

Whenever an RO says you can't do something that you don't believe is correct simply ask him to cite the requisite rule. You'd be surprised by how many times ROs claim something but can't back it up with the specific rule ....

[PPGMD]

I was told that the old rule was written that way because some shooters would take 2 minutes on every run of a stage. I haven't seen this much in the last 5 years.

I don't think this is a problem these days. At FL State the Super Squad caught the squad ahead of it at least once.

That was my squad I remember them catching up and having to wait more than the last shooter twice. Once on the first stage due to the RO having to get instructions on the best way to add a walk on. And the second time was due to a back up at Smoking Dope, we had to wait probably a good 10 minutes before we got to shoot, thus they had to wait for us to finish. Beyond that we stayed ahead particularly since we pushed through to finish the back stages before taking lunch (the squad voted and only wanted to do the walk back and forth once).

Now there was one squad that finished up really late not sure what was up with them.

[ZackJones]

Now there was one squad that finished up really late not sure what was up with them.

We were supposed to have 6 squads on Sunday but ended up with only having 5. We also had issues with RO's getting fragged by splatter and that caused delays. We did send additional RO's out to try and get the squad through their last two stages as quickly as we could. We'll do better next year.

[PPGMD]

Now there was one squad that finished up really late not sure what was up with them.

We were supposed to have 6 squads on Sunday but ended up with only having 5. We also had issues with RO's getting fragged by splatter and that caused delays. We did send additional RO's out to try and get the squad through their last two stages as quickly as we could. We'll do better next year.

That type of steel hanger has that issue. When the Steel Nationals switched away from it the amount of frag that I saw went down tremendously.

[GOF]

I was on the squad that finished late. We were combined with another squad that didn't fill (thus removing one squad and creating a separate larger one). We were the largest squad in the match. It was just the number of shooters on the squad, and not due to lack of participation or poor ROing. We frequently had more shooters running down stage with paint cans than there were targets to paint, and our RO team were excellent. We were caught from behind a couple of times by smaller squads, but that was due simply to our having a significantly larger number of shooters.... some of which were a bit inexperienced... but not enough to overly delay things.

An observation -- 9 PCC shooters overall and only 3 CO. I was a bit surprised at that, given the newness of PCC.

Hat Tip to Matt Mitchell and his staff. It was a well run match in record heat (105-108 heat index). They had shade, ice and water at every stage.

[ZackJones]

An observation -- 9 PCC shooters overall and only 3 CO. I was a bit surprised at that, given the newness of PCC.

I wish we had caught it in time to setup a 6th squad. It didn't help that two of the super squad shooters showed up Sunday morning and let us know they were shooting that day as well.

Regarding CO and PCC - we're seeing growth in both divisions though PCC is growing faster. The weekly classification update ran and we are up to 30 classified in CO (+5 from last week) and 56 in PCCO (+14 from last week).

[RickT]

Now there was one squad that finished up really late not sure what was up with them.

We were supposed to have 6 squads on Sunday but ended up with only having 5. We also had issues with RO's getting fragged by splatter and that caused delays. We did send additional RO's out to try and get the squad through their last two stages as quickly as we could. We'll do better next year.

That type of steel hanger has that issue. When the Steel Nationals switched away from it the amount of frag that I saw went down tremendously.

What type of steel hanger was causing the problem? I've used both Shootsteel with a long, soft spring and Action Target with a short, stiff spring without problem. I've heard that if you hit the "hook" on the MGM hangers bad things can happen, but haven't seen it myslef.

[hornetx40]

any target with bolts heads showing or holes thru the targets cause a ton of problems .Bolt heads ,even the domed ones, are dangerous and cause splash back. Targets hung from any type of hole cause issues with seeing the hit , dead hits, and thru hooks cause splash back.

At large matches where a lot of shooters will shoot the targets over a couple of days its best to put down a hay bale at the base of each target. Most of the bullet fragments collect beneath the target and the hay bale gives the a spot to bury into. The ground just collect a bunch of them then they become secondary missiles.

[ZackJones]

These plates used the hook.

[RickT]

OK. Who sells plates with neither a hole nor carriage bolt head?

[PPGMD]

OK. Who sells plates with neither a hole nor carriage bolt head?

Preface: They are one of my sponsors.

GT Targets

[photoracer]

I was under the impression that for low ready starts you are allowed to get a sight picture of all the targets initially but one you load up and chamber a round you are only allowed to sight picture the target you will be shooting first for the start and the other runs (might be NSSF since I shoot that a lot also).

[hornetx40]

I was under the impression that for low ready starts you are allowed to get a sight picture of all the targets initially but one you load up and chamber a round you are only allowed to sight picture the target you will be shooting first for the start and the other runs (might be NSSF since I shoot that a lot also).

nothing in the rule differentiates between a holstered start and a low ready start. But as it currently reads the R.O. may not allow more sight pictures after the first string. Zack , I think, is rewording that part and taking it to the board......

[ZackJones]

I was under the impression that for low ready starts you are allowed to get a sight picture of all the targets initially but one you load up and chamber a round you are only allowed to sight picture the target you will be shooting first for the start and the other runs (might be NSSF since I shoot that a lot also).

nothing in the rule differentiates between a holstered start and a low ready start. But as it currently reads the R.O. may not allow more sight pictures after the first string. Zack , I think, is rewording that part and taking it to the board......

That's correct. The updated rule book says sight pictures are permitted during make ready and prepare for next string.