How flat does a czechmate shoot?

[cpa5oh]

Had an Infinity guy who shoots 38 super tell me that his dot never leaves the C-more glass...basically said that if an open gun works they way it should (and the shooter does his part) that the dot shouldn't leave the glass.

Does the dot stay in the glass through recoil with a czechmate? I have no ability to try one - I'm a huge fan of the Tactical Sport in Limited so this is a logical gun for me for open if it shoots as flat as the 2011's can.

[Sarge]

This will all depend on the load. And of course there has been a ton written on ,"the dot never leaves the glass". Most worry more about the dot tracking reliably and straight up and down if possible, much more than keeping it in the glass.

[cpa5oh]

I guess, then, from a recoil standpoint asking of those who've shot 2011 and Czechmate open guns: is your dot back on target as fast with the Czechmate as with a 2011?

[NoSteel]

I think that "flatness" will be depedant on load tuning and the recoil spring in use. With the Czechmate you are limited in your bullet profile/length due to what the mag allows.. This will ultimately also restrict the amount of powder that can be used thus affecting the amount of gasses running the comp. With a 2011 platform there is much more that can be done / changed on the gun (comps, springs, grip material, etc). I am switching from CZ to a 2011 only because I just can't get used to the grip angle ( dot acquisition ). The Czechmate is a nice shooting open gun though.

[zzt]

I shot a CZ TS in Limited and decided to try Open. I bought a used 40sw upper that consisted of a CZ 75 SA upper with the firing pin block removed, a threaded TS barrel and a modified Tanfo comp. Tanfo comps are 3-up port designs, and not so effective IMO. I had the first port opened up a bunch and side bleeders milled into the 2nd and 3rd port chambers. I did a bunch of other stuff to the upper and comp, but it is not germane to this thread.

You can get a TS to shoot flat, but it is hard on the hands. A little dot movement is not a problem if it is well behaved, I developed loads using 135 and 155gr bullets @ 172PF that never left the glass of the Burris FF3 slide mounted sight. It is softer shooting than my custom 40sw Open gun that has two large poppels and a 3-port comp.

[kneelingatlas]

Just because you didn't notice the dog leave the glass doesn't mean the dot never left the glass

The Czechmate is a great factory Open, maybe even the best, but if you expect it to be as good as a custom 2011, you're in for a disappointment. With a drop in race hammer and a little polishing the CM trigger will rival a custom 2011 (1.5#, short reset), the only downside is the weight. The CM weights ~50oz with a long, steel comp. Now there are plenty of people spending big bucks for 2011s with SS grips to get the weight back into that range, but I prefer an Open gun in the 42-46oz range.

The factory comp leaves something to be desired, but then again so do most 2011 comps. If flat is what you're going for, you're not going to get it without holes in the barrel, the good news is that my CZ barrels are faster than my 2011 barrels so you can get away with more holes and still make major.

And about CZs being limited in load selection due to OAL limitations, I haven't seen it. The mags can easily take loads out to 1.170", which is as long as I load in my 2011s. The chamber is too short to load JHPs that long, but so are most 2011 chambers out of the box. I load 9.3gr SP2 (similar to 3N38) under at 115 at 1.140" in all my guns, there isn't really a slower powder to be used in 9 major.

The long and short: with a race hammer, custom Al/Ti comp, stroked/lightened slide and three 5/32" holes, the CM will hold its own with just about any 2011 in my opinion, although if you're going to do all that work, you might as well save a grand and start with a TS.

If you decide on a 2011, this one is a hell of a deal: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=235898#entry2631091

I've shot it and the trigger is amazing!

[cpa5oh]

Wow...I was expecting (hoping?) someone was going to say that the Czechmate could run right with the open 2011's based on my experience with the TS (I think it's flat out better than my 2011). I had a feeling that the comp might make that not be the case...

[kneelingatlas]

Something to keep in mind: I've been an Open gun junkie for four years, I've owned more than a dozen Open guns and have shot those of the other local shooters; I've tested nearly a dozen powders and two calibers (9 and 38), so I have pretty discerning tastes at this point.

A factory gun is a factory gun, it's just not a custom gun, and some of the custom guns I've shot haven't knocked my socks off either.

If you're not obsessed with the guns you can buy an Open gun, get it running smoothly with a reliable load and go, but if you're looking for the "perfect Open gun" you will search until you've owned enough different guns to accept it doesn't exist.

If you like your TS you will like the CM, if you want to tune it a little I'd be happy to make specific recommendations, if you want to tune it a lot I suggest a custom TS Open gun (I'm working on an awesome one right now).

If you want to spend a lot of money on mags that don't work get a 2011

[zzt]

I have never seen the point of a CM. IMO, too many compromises. You are correct in that it is the design of the CZ pistol and the limited comp availability.

Starting with a CZ TS has its own drawbacks. You cannot buy a longer barrel for the TS that has a 0.551" OD at the end of the barrel. If you are going 9mm, you can buy a 6" barrel for a CZ 75, cut it down and fit it to the slide. You will have to change out the slide bushing, because this barrel is only 0.501" dia at the muzzle. You are going to have to change out the bushing anyway (more on that later), so this IMO is the very best option for turning a CZTS into a 9mm open gun. The reason is you are no longer limited in the size or number of comps.

I started with the CZ 75 slide as I mentioned above. It is shorter than a TS slide. The limitation is your comp selection is severely restricted by what will actually fit inside the TS frame. There are also big problems having the comp located by the guide rod.

Here is what I discovered. Having the comp located only by the guide rod resulted in accuracy of approx. 6" at 15 yards. The comp rattles around and never settles in exactly the same place. Also The sides of the comp get beat up, because it bangs against the inside of the frame rails, even with the guide rod "locating" it. You can put 6-8 layers of teflon pipe tape on the barrel before you screw the comp on and that helps a lot. Group sizes shrink to 3" at 15 yards. I consider that horrible.

The problem is the slide bushing is just too loose to have the weight of the comp hanging off the end of the barrel. I decided to have the barrel rethreaded and have custom bushing made. The slide bushing was replaced with a tool steel bushing with an ID less that .001" larger than the OD of the barrel. A similar tool steel bushing was inserted in the comp. The intent was to minimize the play in the barrel and comp threads.

Results at the range were dramatically better, 1.5" groups at 15 yards, but not what I was expecting. Since there was not 100% threading on the bushing and barrel (there could not be), there was still some play allowing the comp to rattle around when located only by the guide rod. I decided to use Blue Loctite on the comp/barrel threads. I clocked the comp using the guide rod, put the upper on the pistol and made sure it was centered. I let it set for 2 days to be sure it was cured. When I went to the range, accuracy what what I had hoped for, one hole groups at 15 yards. The best load was less than 2x caliber outside to outside.

Here are some other thoughts. The CZ custom comp is three up ports and four side bleeder ports. It will vent almost all of the gas, so HS-6 produces the softest and flattest loads. It feels like cheating. Now, my 2011 has two poppels and a comp with three large up ports and two large side bleeders. It shoots flattest with max loads of Autocomp, rather than mid-pressure loads of HS-6. The HS-6 makes more than enough gas, but the much higher pressure of the AC load definitely makes the poppels work better and it shoots flatter with a very well behaved dot movement.

All of this is why I say I think starting with a 6" barrel and cutting it down is better. I'm $1200 into the Open, customized, accurized upper. It shoots like a dream and is super accurate, but I have nowhere to go. If you start with the skinny 6" 9mm barrel at $149, have it cut and threaded $95 and have a new, tight slide bushing made $90-$110 you are ahead of the game. Now the comp lives always outside of the frame, so you can use whatever you want. You still have the advantage of using your existing TS slide and since it was already fitted, you won't have to. So for $350 you have a 9mm TS that shoots more accurately than the TS originally did, and can be fitted with a comp. Figure $150 for a good Ti comp and $50 to have it attached and align bored. Figure $90 if you don't fit the barrel yourself. So for under $650 you have a true CZ TS Open gun, that can be converted back to a Limited gun by removing the comp (use blue Locktite) or a steel gun by changing the recoil spring and using a Minor load.

BTW, mine wears a Burris FF3 mounted to the slide and causes zero problems. I like it much, much better than the big C-More frame mounted almost 2" above the bore axis. Yes, I know there are 90 degree mounts, but they have their problems. I've see a 45 degree mount, but cannot find where to buy.

If you go this route your a finished with a world class (IMO) Open pistol for about $2000 (including the cost of the original TS) as long as you are willing to accept the limitations.

You cannot touch a 2011 Open pistol for that price unless you are willing to compromise on quality. The advantage of the 2011 platform is you have a bazillion options and can play with parts, comps, accys to your hearts content. And, as ka mentions, you can built it lighter. Believe me, that really, really helps with transitions and is almost required for steel. Weight distribution is also important. My custom 2011 only weighs 45oz with a polymer STI grip and plastic MSH, but it is super front heavy with a long wide frame, bull barrel and looong steel comp. It feels like you are swinging a log. I'm 1.5 seconds cumulative faster on steel with my 42 oz 1911, just because it swings so much faster.

[zzt]

I disagree with the notion that 2011 mags don't work. I've had tuned STI mags and untuned SVI and MBX mags. All functioned flawlessly. I've heard all the horror stories about how badly some untuned STI mags function. So what. Buy SVI or MBX mags and all your problems disappear, assuming there is not a gun related problem to correct.

Plus, I actually shoot matches and observe. At the last three matches I shot, I witnessed only one failure to feed, and that was on a custom M&P Open pistol. Since the vast majority of pistols used for Open and Limited are 2011 form factors, you'd expect to see a lot of FTFs if mags were a problem.

Edited July 4, 2016 by zzt

[cpa5oh]

The problem with all of that (building a TS into an open gun rather than buying the Czechmate/2011 open gun) is that I can't do much of that work myself and I don't think any builders in my area want to do anything on anything other than a 2011. Spending $3K on the Czechmate would be okay by me...and I don't need much custom done to a TS/Czechmate to make it perfect for me (grip tape, CZ Custom wide safety). But if it's gonna be at a disadvantage to 2011 open guns, there's no point. (I actually do think that running my TS's in Limited I'm at an advantage over the 2011 shooters...I much prefer it to my 2011 limited gun.)

[kneelingatlas]

If you prefer a heavier gun I think you're be happy with the CM, drill three holes in the barrel and it will shoot just as flat as most 2011s.

[zzt]

cpa.., you are correct in that with the TS in Limited you do have an advantage over 2011 shooters, unless they are shooting lightened 6" guns- then you are equal. For one thing, you have to do no tweaking. They just run and run. For Open, I think the situation is reversed. I'm not going to spend any more money experimenting with a CZ, and am anxiously awaiting the results of ka's new TS Open build.

That being said, the new custom Open gun I will build this winter will be a new style 2011. It will be in the 45-46oz range, but the weight will be centered over my right index finger, or slightly further back. It will have a Ti coned comp, slide lightening and a metal grip. More than likely, it will have two comps/barrels, one set up for USPSA Major and one set up for USPSA Steel (minor).

I'll also suggest that if you are willing to spend 3k on a CM, you may be better off spending 3.5k on a already built CK Arms 2011. IMO, it is more gun than the CM.

[thompsoncustom]

How important are the vertical barrel holes when it comes to keep it flat? Are they some how better than a compensator with more vertical ports?

[zzt]

Vertical holes, or poppels as they are called, are more effective at getting the gun flat shooting than all the up comp ports in the world. They do so at the expense of felt recoil.

Poppels in the barrel have access to the highest pressure gas and are the most effective at keeping muzzle rise lower than it would otherwise have been. The larger the poppels, the more downforce you get.

Comps work differently. The more baffles in a comp, the more felt, rearward recoil reduction there is. If the ports also point up, there is muzzle lift reduction as well.

IMO, using both intelligently is the best approach. Too many poppels, or too large and you have a harsh feeling gun that will have problems making Major. The further back on the barrel you place poppels, the more you bleed pressure that is required to drive the bullet faster. So you add more and more slow burning powder to provide the gas necessary to drive all those poppels and still get the bullet up to speed.

You can get a comp only setup to shoot flat, but it is also going to be harsh.

Here are some examples. One Open gun has a 3-chamber, 7 port comp. My HS-6 Major load feels like a mouse fart in this pistol. Noone who shoots it believes it makes Major until they see the chrono results. However, muzzle rise is not as flat as I would like. The dot does leave the glass, but it is well controlled and returns to center quickly.

My other Open gun wears two 3/16" poppels and a 4-chamber, 5-port comp. The same HS-6 load shoots noticeably flatter in this gun, but is harder on the hands. The reason is the popples bled off a lot of the gas that would otherwise have hit the baffles and pulled the gun forward. A max load of WAC actually shoots flatter yet, because you have a higher pressure to work the poppels. Again, at the expense of rearward recoil reduction. A friend watched me shoot this load and commented that the recoil was straight back, not up. Actually, the muzzle does rise a little, but there is definitely a straight back push.

So just like everything else, it's a trade off. If you want the plushest feeling gun, use a comp with many chambers/baffles and enough ports to clear all the gas before the bullet exits the front of the comp. It is possible to get a dead flat shooting gun with a comp like this, but you'll have to go to 185-190PF to do it. That will be hard on the gun, ears and hand. All poppels are going to be loud and very hard on the hands, because you are going to use boatloads of slow powder and there are no comp baffles to pull the gun forward.

With either of my Open guns, equilibrium is reached with powders in the WAC, HS-6, Silhouette speed range. Slower powders make more gas but my comps cannot clear it all so a lot jets out the front and increases rearward recoil. If I had a comp with more baffles, a slower powder would work. I plan to try that in the near future. As I said earlier, everything is a trade off. The number, size and location of poppels, the comp design and the powder and pressure all have to balance to make the ideal load for that particular load and setup.

Added later: if for some reason I could only have all poppels or a comp, I'd go with the comp.

Edited July 5, 2016 by zzt

[kneelingatlas]

Dan,

Designing an Open gun involves a series of trade offs within limits. Lighter bullets shoot flatter, but rules say we can't go lighter than 112gr for major, slower powders work the comp better, but you can only fit so much in the case, holes in the barrel help keep the gun flat, but at the expense of velocity. I've shot comps with one to five chambers and there seems to be diminishing returns after 3 or 4, plus there's the weight. My favorite Open guns have three port comps and three holes in the barrel. I'm also working on two 6" barreled Open guns with light comps and lightened slides; I know from experience the difference between the the comp at the end of a 5.4" barrel compared to one at the end of a 4.1" barrel, so I'm excited to see what one at the end of a 6" barrel will do

[thompsoncustom]

Thanks for the info guys. Im in the early stages of playing around with my cz open gun so trying to soak up as much information as possible.