World Shoot Ammo Shipment

[blackdragon]

The 38 super boxes have shipped out today! Those of you that have called and got a number. Get them back to me ASAP!

Ivan

[Matthew_Mink]

You're Ivan Walcott? I've been trying to reach you for 2 weeks! But I guess its too late now.....

[blackdragon]

Yes Sir! Iam.

Sent PM.

Ivan

[Jack Suber]

For those of you who have already shipped you ammo to Ivan, how did you do it? UPS? FedEx? The UPS people here are giving me crap about having to open the box to verify that the ammo was packed by someone certified in packing ammo. I told them that it is factory ammo in the factory packaging. They still wanted to open it and inspect it. Are they screwing with me or have any of you experienced the same thing? Do I need to put the case in another box and not claim it as ammo? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.

[ErikW]

Jack, I moved your post here from the big WS thread.

UPS didn't blink when I shipped 800 rounds of .40S&W in Armscor factory boxes, declared and everything.

You are encountering "local rules." Go to the UPS web site and print their ammo shipping rules, and take them with you.

[Schutzenmeister]

You are encountering "local rules." Go to the UPS web site and print their ammo shipping rules, and take them with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erik

You're lucky or crafty ... maybe both. What I found on Big Brown's web page under Hazardous Goods said they will only accept HazMat shippments from clients with contracts for that type of service and they will not accept them from individuals or at the routine "UPS Stores". I prefer to use FedEx ... Even so, some interesting (?) new regulations went into effect 1 Jan 05. If they start enforcing them, we're all going to have some problems!

[ErikW]

Yeah I was surprised. But last year, shipping to Illinois for the nationals, FedEx gave me grief and I went to UPS in San Francisco and they didn't have a problem, either.

BTW, I declared "Ammunition, Cartridges for Small Arms" when I typed the contents into the UPS computer. I even put "ORM-D" on the box. What I did not do was volunteer, "Hey I've got some hazardous materials for you to ship!"

[Schutzenmeister]

Yeah I was surprised. But last year, shipping to Illinois for the nationals, FedEx gave me grief and I went to UPS in San Francisco and they didn't have a problem, either.

BTW, I declared "Ammunition, Cartridges for Small Arms" when I typed the contents into the UPS computer. I even put "ORM-D" on the box. What I did not do was volunteer, "Hey I've got some hazardous materials for you to ship!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based on the above, I'd say lucky ... Some idiot clerk behind the counter at UPS didn't know enough to even recognize what he was dealing with. In any case ... just for giggles, go to their web site and type in Hazardous Goods in the search block, then read what all you find. After that, look up the new federal regulations regarding the training required ... I'm getting a little concerned.

Cheers

[D.carden]

Today, I just did exactly what Erik mentioned above for the Area6 match coming up.

No problems at all !!

Labeled it "ammunition". Wrote "small arms ammo ORM-D" on the box.

Off it went.

Took about 10 minutes.

Now, this is at a "UPS depot" NOT a UPS ( use to be mailboxes etc.) store.

[ErikW]

Oh yeah, by all means, go to a UPS Customer Counter.

[shred]

I still say the best bet is to have a friendly gun store ship it for you if you can find one. They have a UPS driver that's used to moving ammo around, they've got piles of spare ORM-D boxes and the driver doesn't care what's in the outgoing boxes.

[Schutzenmeister]

Today, I just did exactly what Erik mentioned above for the Area6 match coming up.

No problems at all !!

Labeled it "ammunition". Wrote "small arms ammo ORM-D" on the box.

Off it went.

Took about 10 minutes.

Now, this is at a "UPS depot" NOT a UPS ( use to be mailboxes etc.) store.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did they require you to fill out a "Dangerous Goods Declaration" form? If not, I'm surprised ...

[Rob Boudrie]

You are encountering "local rules." Go to the UPS web site and print their ammo shipping rules, and take them with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Erik

You're lucky or crafty ... maybe both. What I found on Big Brown's web page under Hazardous Goods said they will only accept HazMat shippments from clients with contracts for that type of service and they will not accept them from individuals or at the routine "UPS Stores". I prefer to use FedEx ... Even so, some interesting (?) new regulations went into effect 1 Jan 05. If they start enforcing them, we're all going to have some problems!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Loaded ammo is not "hazmat" according to UPS tarriffs (although separate powder and primers are). UPS depots should take it, but "pack and sends", including the ubuquitous "UPS "Store" (formerly "Mailboxes etc.") will not.

One of the reasons for the "contract shipper only" requirement on hazmat is an onerous contract - if the shipment leaks or causes damage, the shipper agrees to pay all costs of cleanup without limitation of any kind, even if UPS is clearly at fault for the spill. I got this info from a business owner who would not use UPS to ship hazmat because of these terms.

[D.carden]

Schutz,

No, I didn't fill out any such document. Just created the shipping label on their computer terminal, declared its contence and value, boxed it up. Done!!

One other thing, it must ship "ground" delivery. Make sure the clerk knows that. If they assume it will ship "air", thats where the confusion begins ( learned that shipping ammo to the Florida Open).

Hopes this helps!!

Dan

[Schutzenmeister]

Loaded ammo is not "hazmat" according to UPS tarriffs (although separate powder and primers are).  UPS depots should take it, but "pack and sends", including the ubuquitous "UPS "Store" (formerly "Mailboxes etc.") will not.

Rob ... I don't know what you're reading in the UPS tarriffs guide, but the following information comes from 49CFR172 ... These are the Federal Regulations governing the transportation of HazMats.

§ 172.1 Purpose and scope. This part lists and classifies those materials which he Department has designated as hazardous materials for purposes of transportation and prescribes the requirements for shipping papers, package marking, labeling, and transport vehicle placarding applicable to the shipment and transportation of those hazardous materials.

§ 172.101 Purpose and use of hazardous materials table.

(a) The Hazardous Materials Table in this section designates the materials listed therein as hazardous materials for the purpose of transportation of those materials. [Emphasis added.] For each listed material, the Table identifies the hazard class or specifies that the material is forbidden in transportation, and gives the proper shipping name or directs the user to the preferred proper shipping name. In addition, the Table specifies or references requirements in this subchapter pertaining to labeling, packaging, quantity limits aboard aircraft and stowage of hazardous materials aboard vessels.

The table itself is way too long to cut and paste, but the proper term for what we are shipping is "Cartridges, Small Arms". (If you look up the applicable line for 'ammunition' it will refer you to cartridges, small arms.) There are two listings for this on the table. The first lists it as a 1.4S Explosive, UN0012. This is the designation which one must generally use for an international shipment. However, since all we are doing is shipping to the expiditor (Armscor) in the US, we can use the "ORM-D" designation listed further down the table.

With all respect Rob, I used to do this for a living too. The fact that "ammunition" or "cartridges" are listed in the table makes them by Federal Regulation a hazardous material for transportation purposes. The penalties for sidesteping or ignoring that are potentially severe.

Please don't read me wrong ... All I'm trying to do here is to present factual information and quote the source from where I got it.

Cheers

[Schutzenmeister]

All

Following the lead Rob gave me, I continued to look up more information on the subject ... actually starting with the UPS web page.

That lead me to the following:

§ 172.200 Applicability.

(a) Description of hazardous materials required. Except is otherwise provided in this subpart, each person who offers a hazardous material for transportation shall describe the hazardous material on the shipping paper in the manner required by this subpart.

( This subpart does not apply to any material, other than a hazardous substance, hazardous waste or marine pollutant, that is—

(1) Identified by the letter ‘‘A’’ in column 1 of the §172.101 table, except when the material is offered or intended for transportation by air; or

(2) Identified by the letter ‘‘W’’ in column 1 of the § 172.101 table, except when the material is offered or intended for transportation by water; or

(3) An ORM–D, except when the material is offered or intended for transportation by air.

It would seem, that so long as you ship solely by ground transportation, an ORM-D does not require any special paperwork, per the above. (My apologies for the long previous post ... My experiences have been more in the arena of shipping numerous aircraft loads of equipment with hundreds of HazMats (including ammo) all over the planet ... I confes I rarely delt with one or two boxes!)

Hence, I now see how D. was able to ship his ammo without filing out the forms. I shipped mine by air, and thus had no choice. Perhaps if I'd had more time for the shipment I should have considered a ground delivery!

Rob ... Thanks for pointing me in another direction ... I owe you one!!!

[davidwiz]

One other thing, it must ship "ground" delivery. Make sure the clerk knows that. If they assume it will ship "air", thats where the confusion begins ( learned that shipping ammo to the Florida Open).

Hmm. I don't think that is a UPS or Federal requirement. When I shipped ammo out for the SMM3G in April, I sent it UPS 2nd Day Air.

-David

[Schutzenmeister]

Hmm.  I don't think that is a UPS or Federal requirement. When I shipped ammo out for the SMM3G in April, I sent it UPS 2nd Day Air.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

David

I don't know what UPS did or didn't for you, but if your ammo is intended to be shipped by air, then by Federal Regulations (which for all intents and purposes = federal law) you have additional paperwork to do ... Honest!

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm not disagreeing with the CFR hazmat definitions. What I was trying to say is that

"ORM-D, Cartridges, Small Arms" does not trigger the UPS requirements for Hazmat treatment (Hazmat surcharge on each shipping; shipment accepted from contract hazmat shipper only). Powder, Primers, and various other items do trigger these requirements.

Definitions can very depending on the context. Here in Massachusetts, a rifle is not a firearm; a can of pepper spray is ammunition; and a handgun frame without other parts is not a firearm if you are looking at state law. Adding to the definition confusion, the MA license to posess a low capacity rifle is called a "Firearms ID Card", even though such a weapon is not a firearm. Go figure. Looking at Federal definitions gets a different answer.

This state is so messed up they'd probably pull my plate as obscene if they knew what it stood for .

[Jack Suber]

Well, I sent my ammo out today. Tried UPS. They were absolutely no help. First I went to a UPS store. The people looked at the box and saw the "small arms ammunition" print and asked if it was ammo. I told them it was and told them that it was packed in the manufacturers packaging. Then I showed them a copy of UPS regs. The kid at the county didn't have a clue. So, he called UPS. While he was on hold, I told him to be sure to tell them that the ammo is in the manufacturers packaging, ORM-D. They told him "no." So, I got on the phone with them and they said that UPS Stores could not ship the ammo and that I had to take the case to a UPS hub (45 minutes away). I told them to stick it. Don't know why I even bothered considering this since UPS is the same company that left a pistol on my front porch for 4 days (with the "adult signature required" decal clearly visible).

Anyway, I went to Kinkos/FedEx store. No questions asked. They didn't even ask what was in it. The girl looked at the box; tried to read some of the writing on it(most of it was taped up); weighed it; labeled it; and then said have a nice day. Glad to get that out of the way.