Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.

[Bkreutz]

W2R, have you broken a trigger return spring doing it that way? I think the reason S&W puts the little stuff inside their spring is because they were getting broken springs, and Glocks don't have it in there.

I may have it mistaken with another gun, but wasn't the stuff inside the spring to get rid of the cheap "sproing!" sound?

It was added, as I understand it, to dampen vibrations and thus lengthen the life of the part. Perhaps this is more of an issue than it is in Glocks due to proximity to the chamber. Dunno exactly.

I had a chance to look at a Burwell worked gun. We do about the same thing but with different parts. He angles the striker foot, I reshape the sear to the older Apex sear profile. They've since went back to a "hooked" sear (as viewed from the side). I use a Glock armorer plate (the orange one) to check sear engagement too. It works, slides right in. lol. Flattening the trigger bar loop (that actuates the sear) will decrease trigger pull, but increases pull distance slightly (same principle as Glock minus vs stock disconnector but not as drastic). Craytex wheel everything, then polish. The overtravel stop was the most complicated but as I've read there are several ways to accomplish that. I wanted the break further forward, so the overtravel stop was needed. I could take pics I guess. Tactile reset can be done by bending the trigger bar (if you have an older model). Smith has since made improvements to that on newer guns. Don't over bend it as it will slow down trigger reset.

I crush the trigger and so far everything is still working.

Thanks for the idea of using the Glock plate... I didn't think of trying it, but it's good to know that it will fit. I was looking for a way to check sear / striker engagement since I suspect that this is the source of my woes while trying to reshape a stock MIM sear to improve on the trigger pull. As a side note to you and anyone else... have you noticed that the factory hinged trigger hangs up before the safety disengages when you run a lighter trigger pull (assuming people have kept the factory hinged trigger)? It's like the spring inside the trigger hinge is too strong when combined with a lighter pull... the trigger starts moving rearward before the hinge straightens out and the safety bump on the trigger gets hung up on the frame. At that point, the additional force applied to the trigger straightens out the hinge and it slip up into the frame and the trigger releases. This is highly annoying and happens every time I don't pull the very bottom of the trigger.

It looks like I'm going to have to go with an Apex trigger. It's a shame, too, because one of the things I really don't like about Glocks is how that safety lever on the trigger feels. Can anyone who is currently using the Apex trigger (polymer, FF, or aluminum) tell me if the safety lever fully retracts into the face of the trigger or if it sticks out like on the factory Glock trigger?

Munson, Burwell has a pretty good detailed process online that should probably be reviewed before attempting work. http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm

The blade fully retracts into the trigger on all the Apex triggers

[want2race]

You can also use a razor blade and shave .010 from the trigger safety lever block thingy (technical term). You are adding distance so that it will clear the frame sooner as you pull the trigger. Still works as intended.

[ddc]

"...have you noticed that the factory hinged trigger hangs up before the safety disengages when you run a lighter trigger pull..." ... etc., etc.

Yes. My understanding is that this is a somewhat common side effect when installing the APEX CAEK.

It happened to me. A very minor amount of file work on the nub that hits the frame... no more problem.

My wife's M&P, identical setup, identical CAEK installation, did not have the problem.

Edited April 20, 2016 by ddc

[DukeEB]

I had an m&p 9, put an apex into it. It was ok, but I had accuracy issues as well. I could hit well at 10 yards, but it really went to heck at 15. I traded it off soon after that. I now have an xdm competition 9, and I love the feel of the xd/xdm lineup.

[MemphisMechanic]

I have a gunsmith fit Apex barrel on back order. Can't wait to test it.

You'll like it. The gun wedges together rock-solid when it's in battery, due to the way the underside of the barrel is crammed upward as it run over the top of the locking block.

I swear the gun is slightly softer shooting and it feels heavier in the hand, just because it locks together as a solid unit and isn't able to rattle.

[BrianKr]

Memphis, our RO and I were talking after Sundays match and he told me that my brass, "Was just rolling out of the gun". OK, so ejection with light loads has never been energetic, but the new tight fit barrel is responsible for even less energetic ejection, as are the powderpuff minor PF loads. It's just a characteristic of the various conditions coming together. The gun functions 100%, so I'm not concerned at all. Now I can make A zone head shots so I'm keeping things just as they are.

I wish I had fitted the new barrel even tighter. But I tried to fine tune it a bit too much with the wrong tool. One stroke of the file went from too tight to not as tight as I would have liked to have it. I wanted to produce malfunctions and work from there. I probably should have stoned it when I got to the too tight part. ...Next barrel.

I don't know that I feel a reduction in recoil, but that makes sense. It was fairly soft shooting before the operation.

[Hi-Power Jack]

How is the accuracy of the M&P Compact in 9mm

(the gun with a 3.4" barrel) ?

[MemphisMechanic]

Memphis, our RO and I were talking after Sundays match and he told me that my brass, "Was just rolling out of the gun". OK, so ejection with light loads has never been energetic, but the new tight fit barrel is responsible for even less energetic ejection, as are the powderpuff minor PF loads.

I shoot a 135gr bullet over WST at around 133PF so I guess it's no surprise that mine ejects a bit more vigorously. I throated my Apex barrel to take this bullet out to 1.150" and load to 1.135" and like yourself, when I call a clean 10-yard headshot A-zone... that's where the hole gets punched every time. It loves this load.

It's amazing how much it changes things when you're shooting a gun more accurate than you are. I was missing my G34 beforehand, and they're hardly tack drivers.

Edited April 21, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[TacticalReload]

I used to own on of the earlier vintage 9c models. This was well before I heard anything about accuracy issues with the M&P and I don't recall being at all concerned with the accuracy of it when I was shooting. I assume I would have taken notice if it was inaccurate so I assume it was fine. It seems like there is very limited complaints about accuracy with the 9C model -- I guess there is different geometry with the barrels and it works adequately.

On an unrelated note, I took my VTAC with OEM barrel to the range today to get it another shot. I tried 115 and 124 grain reloads in it. It seemed to actually favor the 115 by a little. It still throws flyers, however. The first (hand-cycled round) seemed notorious for not going where the others did, and most of the stringing seemed vertical. The flyers were more prevalent with the heavier bullets, but I only shot 50 rounds of each so it could have been coincidence. I really wish it would either get worse or get better... because it's in that middle ground where it's not good enough for me to be satisfied but not bad enough for me to justify sinking $200 into another barrel. I have a feeling that I'm going to be going the new barrel route soon, though. I'm OCD like that.

On yet another unrelated note, I finished working over the parts. I added Apex springs, modified the OEM MIM sear's angles, rounded the striker block, polished the striker & trigger bar, and added an over-travel screw to the frame right behind the trigger. I must say... it has made a world of difference. This gun might not spend its whole life as a game gun so I left the trigger pull at 4# with a tiny bit of creep and I didn't touch the pre-travel at all. But even so, the gritty pre-travel is gone and the pull used to be nearly 8# stock with a ridiculous amount of over-travel. It's amazing how much can be done with these guns with very little effort. I wish I could get Glocks to this point as easily without dealing with a spongy, creepy trigger with weak reset. I guess that's the upside to having a genuine sear engaging the striker versus just having a trigger bar slip over a connector.

[BrianKr]

TR, this just a suspicion on my part. I think part of the non-issue with 9c's could be becasue of the role tha they play in carry and not competition.

I for one require an optic for my best accuracy these days. There was a time that I didn't. On my 9c it has iron sights and there is no provision for an optic. According to S&W it'll never have that provision added. So mine is carried with iron sights which isn't optimal for me. But does that bother me? No, not really. In it's role it's a carry gun and mostly for close encounters; much closer than in competition. Out to 10 yards I don't even need to use sights to get MOA of perp'. So I don't sweat the iron sights.

Now if I had an optic on it I might ask more of it. But do I really need one on it now? No. But I do like the recoil characteristics of the 9c, so if it was optics capable I just might slap one on it and shoot it in competition. With a red dot the distance between sights is meaningless, or to say it a different way, the size of the gun makes no difference. Then I'd trick it out and do what needs to be done and I might see a problem. But the way it is now? It's fine for it's intended role.

I bet others think the same thoughts. I also bet that's why S&W doesn't fix the problem. Except now they're selling competition ready M&Ps. Or at least they have the look of being competition ready, except that not all are. When I discussed the accuracy problem with a S&W PC gent he was amazed at we're asking the guns to do. Can they really be so closeted that they don't know what competition requires and what we need from what they're making?

Anyway, I'm happy now. It just took me far too long to get there.

[TacticalReload]

I didn't even consider buying a FS M&P until after Apex released the barrel, and it appeared to be successful. I was following Randy's attempts for years online. You're probably right with regards to the 9C.

I also hear you about optics. I'm 42 and I find that irons are a bit more difficult than they used to be... at least for long distance accuracy. That's why I'm not even 100% comfortable with bench rest groups using iron sights. The dot, however, makes it very obvious when it's the fault of the gun and not the shooter. Once I get my PC back from S&W with God-knows-what done to it (my money is on "barrel swap"), I'm going to bench it without my RMR mounted and then again with the RMR on it... both with the Apex barrel. If I can group substantially better using irons + Apex than I can with my VTAC (OEM barrel) + irons, then I'm getting an Apex barrel for the VTAC and calling it a day.

I'm in a weird place right now with handguns. So much of what's available out there doesn't interest me for one reason or another, which is odd since I'm usually drooling over my next purchase. I feel like I'm leaving revolvers behind because I've seen so many issues with new production S&W wheelguns lately (triggers and hammers rubbing, canted barrels, wonky cylinder gaps, etc.); and my M&P frustrations make me not what to buy any more of them right now... it's a shame because I really want an M&P45. You can't get me to spend any amount of money on a Kimber, KelTec, Kahr, or Taurus. I basically have all the SIGs I really want. Beretta, Glock, Springfield, CZ, Walther, and Ruger models that are available don't do anything for me. I don't have the money for a custom / semi-custom 1911. Guess that just means more money for ammo.

[munsonbw]

After my local IDPA match (I'm getting better!), I had a local skilled shooter bench rest my M&P Pro to verify where it is shooting. Turns out it was not me, but it is the sight alignment. It definitely shoots left, as confirmed by him and also by me when I had bench rested it. Interestingly, when I benched it I was getting pretty much only left but when he shot it the POI was both left and low. He shot it rested exactly where i was hitting freehand after finally getting comfortable with the gun. So, perhaps we both were holding the sight picture a little high for the M&P. I forgot to ask what his sight picture was, but I remember when benching it I tried to put the FO on the bull. After getting back from the range on the first outing I could easily see that the rear sight was not centered in the slide, but I was not sure that was a good indicator of alignment. In this case it was.

So, for this weekend I will work on polishing up the internals. The guy shooting it didn't think the trigger was too bad and estimated about 4#. I guess I am spoiled by my Dan Wesson which feels WAAAY lighter than the M&P. I'll probably hold off on the full Apex CAEK for now and maybe try the glock trigger spring that want2race suggested.

[want2race]

Just remember, one loop on the G spring has to be "adjusted". Otherwise the trigger pin won't fit through, and it will be slightly long. If the trigger safety doesn't reset, that is most likely why.

To answer an earlier question. I have an Apex trigger spring here, and it does not have the spring filler like the stock spring. So far, zero issues with the trigger.

[TacticalReload]

Weird. I have an Apex trigger spring that definitely has the filler material in it. I bought it new about a month ago. I have another spring kit coming that should be delivered by tomorrow... I'll look at that one, too.

[munsonbw]

Just remember, one loop on the G spring has to be "adjusted". Otherwise the trigger pin won't fit through, and it will be slightly long. If the trigger safety doesn't reset, that is most likely why.

To answer an earlier question. I have an Apex trigger spring here, and it does not have the spring filler like the stock spring. So far, zero issues with the trigger.

Do you think for the first go around I should just use the Apex springs? I am comfortable with tuning and tweaking things in general, but at the same time I do not want to end up with an unsafe gun. I guess it will be obvious what needs to be done when I get it in there?

[want2race]

The stuff I have, definitely older. I've seen other changes in Apex parts over the years. Wouldn't surprise me if the spring filler was added later. I've seen at least 2 different sear profiles.

[TacticalReload]

Just remember, one loop on the G spring has to be "adjusted". Otherwise the trigger pin won't fit through, and it will be slightly long. If the trigger safety doesn't reset, that is most likely why.

To answer an earlier question. I have an Apex trigger spring here, and it does not have the spring filler like the stock spring. So far, zero issues with the trigger.

Do you think for the first go around I should just use the Apex springs? I am comfortable with tuning and tweaking things in general, but at the same time I do not want to end up with an unsafe gun. I guess it will be obvious what needs to be done when I get it in there?

Personally, I would just buy the Apex spring kit. It's $26 delivered from http://www.twobrostactical.com/collections/m-p/products/m-p-competition-spring-kit-- I've bought two sets from them and the transaction went smoothly and delivery was fairly prompt.

[want2race]

If you are going to order stuff, definitely get the spring kit. I just use what I have on hand, because I can. The spring kit from Apex is great.

[munsonbw]

I'll go with the Apex stuff. Sounds like the easiest and most sensible way for me at this point. I need to get a recoil spring and I hope to also find a reduced weight mag release spring for my 1911. I didn't realize how much of a bear that thing was until trying out the M&P.

Thanks again for the help.

ben

[want2race]

shootersconnection.com has the reduced mag catch spring for your 1911. That's where I get mine at least.