Stage and Match Total times

[Damonwoodall]

As the 2016 season approaches I have been paying attention to a few matches across the country and getting a average on stage/ total match times. I'm very aware that there is a divided difference between those that like either Outlaw, Uspsa/ 3gun nation or don't care which they shoot. Also different opinions about scoring etc. I see a lot of times averaging around 30-35 seconds. Shoot 8-10 rds dump gun, do it again and again. So what do you feel like spending a few thousand dollars on equipment. Driving great distances for some, shooting 6 stages at a monthly match and being on the range for 10 hrs only to have shot a match thats not much more time on the clock than a IDPA match?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Damonwoodall

[Bryan 45]

When we set up stages for a local and charge $30 match fee, I feel we give the customer a good value with 5 or 6 20-40 second stages.

When I pay a $200+ match fee, drive a few hours, stay in a hotel a few nights, and spend time away from my family, I prefer to shoot as much as possible, both in time and rounds. Give me 100 second stages, 150 rounds per gun +, and some crazy stuff that shooters don't see at locals and I'm happy.

And there's only one thing worse than a pistol only stage at a major. Unless it's either in a shoot house or at night, or with NODS. Or from a moving vehicle.

Good job doing some customer satisfaction market research, Damon. This is certainly an area that some events overlook. (or perhaps it appears even do not care)

[Benelli Chick]

We tend to go to matches that have longer stage times...just because of what we like to shoot.

I ALWAYS get more fun than most people, because I'm always shooting longer!

Anyway, our fastest Limited Scope shooter took 787.06 to shoot 9 stages at Rocky Mountain 2015. We aim for 60 seconds for fastest shooter, around 100 seconds for good shooter (a little above average). It took me 1652.21 plus penalties. I finished at about 46%. So most people took less time than me. But like 95 people had more fun than me! :-)

But remember, at our match you're travelling on average of about 100 yards per stage and we don't have any air. We also have 240-300 second time outs on all the stages so that almost everyone can finish. I hate going to a match and having a glitch and then not getting to shoot one of my guns or whatever.

Most of the matches we go to, the fastest person is up over 40 seconds a stage on average...we like a little longer stages with more movement, more thinking kind of thing. It's more the whole stage for us, not trigger speed. Plus, if I get all geared up, I want to spend some time shooting.

Superstition is probably the speediest match we go to. We love the natural terrain - Blueridge (long stages), Fallen Brethren, the old Ft Benning-didn't make 2015... (some long, some short), Gen III is kind of speedy natural terrain which is fun...

We haven't made it to Hard as Hell or Northwest Multigun, but both have longer stages with a lot of thought put in them. We also go to USPSA nationals...pretty long stages for a berm match...

Lot's of choices for longer stages and more shooting per stage matches for you to attend.

But if you like drag races, you'll want to go to different matches.

No matter what match you go to, you will be resetting, and standing around watching or hopefully talking to your amazing and interesting 3-Gun friends more than you will be shooting. Nature of the beast!

Just my $.02.

Denise

Oh yeah, and Bryan 45, we have an all pistol stage each year, and we try to keep the "jackrabbits" over a minute, but last two years top speed was in the 50's! Stupid, crazy, talented jackrabbits! But, you still had some shooting time!

Edited January 4, 2016 by Benelli Chick

[Moltke]

Damon, a mega match with high round counts would be AWESOME!

Can I make some recommendations?

Get rid of the capacity restrictions for Limited and Heavy to make it easier for those shooters to carry more ammo

Increase the rifle round count by putting more long range targets beyond 100 yards instead of more papers inside 50

Only have 1-2 "hard shots" on any course because the amount of game planning, shooting, reloading, movement, positions, etc etc is going to make it hard enough to finish let alone win

Allowing targets as optional birdshot / pistol is nice but IT WILL TURN INTO A PISTOL MATCH if you aren't careful

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I personally like big stages with relatively equal round counts for each gun.....for me, 15-20 shotgun shells on each stage isn't a bad thing when we do that many with pistol and rifle.

[Moltke]

A "large" USPSA pistol course of fire is 32 rounds and probably 25 yards of movement

I like it when the pistol portion of a course is that, then comes the shotgun and later the rifle follows

I'd love to see a mega match at Woody's this year with every course breaking 100rds

[Stlhead]

Why change capacity restrictions? Just make the stages bigger. Bryan 45 is on the right track. If you only have bays to work with then use 3 or for bays for each stage.

[Damonwoodall]

All above I appreciate the input. Since I run Tarheel now and have set up the last two monthly matches that's what my question is directed toward "monthlys" not major matches. I'm not new at setting up a match either. As of 2016 we are a complete "Outlaw" format year round now. This includes scoring all paper. Not sling two and roll out. For me I have seen a growing increase of poor muzzle control in the last two years and really noticing more DQ's as stages are pushing new shooters on the edge of 140ish to 160ish in a bay style matches. Just for clarity my range has the ability to run all bay, all natural terrain or both. For insight our last match was capped at 88 paid shooters. 74 came and shot 6 stages all on natural terrain. Outlaw format with 150 sec. par times per stage. Top shooter was a Pro with total time 313.93. As I evaluated after the match 63rd place was the first shooter total 900.77. 9 shooters over that, 1 no finish and two DQ's. Running pistol came out on both. Out of the 12 shooter after 63rd they are still green. Top shooters average time was 53.00 sec per stage. Safety meeting started at 8:00 and we were done with match at around 5:10. November's match par time was 180 par time and after evaluating times again I bumped it back to the 150 and I think that's the right amount for a match where they get a good balance between all the shooters and giving them their monies worth plus trigger time not turn and burn I'm done......

Ken to answer a few of your questions off of the above subject. We have returned to the old division names, round ct. at all monthly are 125, 125, 75 and they used all of them last match. Don't care what your rifle mag holds as long as it is a mag not a drum. And the last answer your not going to like as all targets for long range are 3 Moa some greater depending on distance. Nothing no small than 6" and nothing greater than 12/14 400 and under. Max 450 with B-C Silhouette. Please keep on the originally Question.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Damonwoodall

[Moltke]

Thanks!

[Damonwoodall]

Ken If you can hold a magnified glass in one hand and rifle in the other I will allow you to shoot it. For you I will call it Ken's hand held div. lol! Good to hear from you. Hope to see you soon. Woody

Edited January 5, 2016 by Damonwoodall

[Benelli Chick]

Well, I missed the boat on that one.

At our "local" matches we do 4 stage, but they are pretty much RM3G/He-Man type stages.

Very similar in length to our big match stages. Average probably 120 seconds. We have a suggested time out and people will let you know when you reach it, but we often let people continue if they want until they're done or run out of ammo!

If they can't hit anything, we usually suggest they call it and stop wasting ammo.

That being said, local matches at Whittington are low turn out...as we are over 2 hours away from the closest real town...Oh wait, there's a town in Texas that's only 90 minutes away...That makes it a lot easier to take time to allow people to figure out where they're hitting etc. when we don't have to hurry to get everyone through.

Enjoy the longer stages! Makes me feel like I have a chance to learn more, since sadly our locals are my "practice."

Have to charge $40 because of range fees etc. But if we have a two day weekend...Skills, RO Clinic, 3-Gun and 2 rifle or whatever, we charge $60 for both days, so then it's only $30 a match. Briefing starts at 0900, we're usually done, including tear down by about 1600...sometimes earlier, sometimes later.

Nice thing for the two day is that you can get rooms right at Whittington for a decent price and stay right a the range!

[Bryan 45]

Damon- I didn't understand you were talking about local matches.

The problem we have is balance. Either we run a 4 stage, 100 seconds per stage match with only 48 shooters, a 5 stage, 60 seconds per stage match, with 60 shooters, or a 6 stage, 30 seconds per stage match with 72 shooters. Anything else and we finish up about dark. We unfortunately always have a wait list, but that's probably mostly because we don't have a regular schedule, so when we advertise a match, all the local shooters figure if they miss it, who knows when the next one will be.

There may be some things we don't do efficiently as possible, which is why the matches with longer stages, even with reduced numbers of shooters, always run late in the date. But even your last match, 800 to 1700, makes for a long day. I think there's a balance between giving the competitors a challenge, a good value, and not being worn out at the end of the day. Variety is what I see as the number 1 reason shooters keep coming back though.

It would be easy to maximize the number of shooters you can get through a local by giving them short stages with easy reset, but at the end of the day, no one will have had much fun except the guy collecting match fees. Of course, I've shot some matches that were pretty boring, but good company always improves the situation too.

Denise- for your local matchse with 4 stages averaging 120 seconds, how many shooters can you get through the match in a day?

[LoganbillJ]

We run monthly matches here in MO. A general rule I have for stages is 14rds/gun on average per stage. It pushes the stage times to 45-60 seconds for our fastest shooters depending on stage design and layout. We run 5 stages every month. First shots at 9:30 with us generally finishing up at 4:30-5:00. We could run a max of 60-70 shooters at that pace. I would prefer to keep it at 60 so the day goes quicker and the shooters don't get as worn out from reset.

Personally I won't drive a great distance to shoot a match I know won't be a challenge in one way or another. I am not a fan of shooting a hose fest where the only skill tested is who can pull the trigger the fastest. I feel our shooters are challenged every month and in doing so their skill grows. We charge $30 for 5 stages. At that price I feel the amount of time spent shooting is fair considering the challenges encountered while on the stage.

[Benelli Chick]

Damon- I didn't understand you were talking about local matches.

The problem we have is balance. Either we run a 4 stage, 100 seconds per stage match with only 48 shooters, a 5 stage, 60 seconds per stage match, with 60 shooters, or a 6 stage, 30 seconds per stage match with 72 shooters. Anything else and we finish up about dark. We unfortunately always have a wait list, but that's probably mostly because we don't have a regular schedule, so when we advertise a match, all the local shooters figure if they miss it, who knows when the next one will be.

There may be some things we don't do efficiently as possible, which is why the matches with longer stages, even with reduced numbers of shooters, always run late in the date. But even your last match, 800 to 1700, makes for a long day. I think there's a balance between giving the competitors a challenge, a good value, and not being worn out at the end of the day. Variety is what I see as the number 1 reason shooters keep coming back though.

It would be easy to maximize the number of shooters you can get through a local by giving them short stages with easy reset, but at the end of the day, no one will have had much fun except the guy collecting match fees. Of course, I've shot some matches that were pretty boring, but good company always improves the situation too.

Denise- for your local matchse with 4 stages averaging 120 seconds, how many shooters can you get through the match in a day?

No more than about 48...but like I said, we don't have a waiting list because of location, so it works out okay. If we have 48, we sometimes don't let them shoot forever and it is a LONG day! I understand your restrictions. More stages, more people. We started with 5 stages each match, but we weren't getting done until 6 or later...and with a 2-5 hour drive home, that was too much!

P.S. Our March skills match has 12 stages on Saturday, but they're very short. They work on separate skills, and then we put them together into 4 stages on Sunday!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Benelli Chick

[EaZeNuTZ33]

We run monthly matches here in MO. A general rule I have for stages is 14rds/gun on average per stage. It pushes the stage times to 45-60 seconds for our fastest shooters depending on stage design and layout. We run 5 stages every month. First shots at 9:30 with us generally finishing up at 4:30-5:00. We could run a max of 60-70 shooters at that pace. I would prefer to keep it at 60 so the day goes quicker and the shooters don't get as worn out from reset.

Personally I won't drive a great distance to shoot a match I know won't be a challenge in one way or another. I am not a fan of shooting a hose fest where the only skill tested is who can pull the trigger the fastest. I feel our shooters are challenged every month and in doing so their skill grows. We charge $30 for 5 stages. At that price I feel the amount of time spent shooting is fair considering the challenges encountered while on the stage.

Since I've driven two states away for club matches and all over for big matches.......I feel confident I can safely say that the Lead Farm matches are the best thing going, and the best prep matches for big matches possible. A steal at $30 and would make a solid model for anyone putting a match on.

[Damonwoodall]

We run monthly matches here in MO. A general rule I have for stages is 14rds/gun on average per stage. It pushes the stage times to 45-60 seconds for our fastest shooters depending on stage design and layout. We run 5 stages every month. First shots at 9:30 with us generally finishing up at 4:30-5:00. We could run a max of 60-70 shooters at that pace. I would prefer to keep it at 60 so the day goes quicker and the shooters don't get as worn out from reset.

Personally I won't drive a great distance to shoot a match I know won't be a challenge in one way or another. I am not a fan of shooting a hose fest where the only skill tested is who can pull the trigger the fastest. I feel our shooters are challenged every month and in doing so their skill grows. We charge $30 for 5 stages. At that price I feel the amount of time spent shooting is fair considering the challenges encountered while on the stage.

Thanks Benelli Chick and Bryan. By the way Byran loved the pod cast!!! Yes we are dealing with the masses hear in central NC. Every weekend on both days you can drive no more than a 1 1/2 hours max and shoot any type match from long range to steel challenge and all of the above. Last year I hosted 32 matches of some type. Finding the balance on time and numbers is tricky. It just keeps growing! I wanted to get a feel on numbers around the country on monthly "Outlaw" style format matches. As they say all things are trendy and things generally return to the beginning. Testing shooters skill set is what I feel a stage should doing along with rewarding them with accuracy. Last match I set a 8" bonus target out at 350. Last target in the array was 260 8". So if you hit the 8" 350 bonus target you gained -20 on time. No penalty for attempting it just time it took. Shooters loved it. Thanks again for you Outlawers input! Woody Edited January 6, 2016 by Damonwoodall

[Bryan 45]

Just to clarify- even though we're talking about stage times, you're using match points for scoring, right?

Edit to add- This question was directed towards Damon. Thanks!

Edited January 6, 2016 by Bryan 45

[Benelli Chick]

Just to clarify- even though we're talking about stage times, you're using match points for scoring, right?

We sure do. We use 100 pts per stage.

[Damonwoodall]

Yes Bryan, all paper scored .5 sec per point down and percentage on each stage. New rules and scoring go in affect next monthly match in March.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Damonwoodall

[michael1778]

Yes Bryan, all paper scored .5 sec per point down and percentage on each stage. New rules and scoring go in affect next monthly match in March.

Damon, your location is fantastic and any of your events there have been great. Always fond memories. I wish you and your participants all the best in 2016.

I like the philosophy of rewarding accuracy. I'll suffer for a while, but it will force me to be a better shooter.

Do you know when we should see the complete rule set for the March match (and beyond?. Thank you.

[Bryan 45]

Yes Bryan, all paper scored .5 sec per point down and percentage on each stage. New rules and scoring go in affect next monthly match in March.

Alright Alright Alright.

[Damonwoodall]

Yes Bryan, all paper scored .5 sec per point down and percentage on each stage. New rules and scoring go in affect next monthly match in March.

Damon, your location is fantastic and any of your events there have been great. Always fond memories. I wish you and your participants all the best in 2016.

I like the philosophy of rewarding accuracy. I'll suffer for a while, but it will force me to be a better shooter.

Do you know when we should see the complete rule set for the March match (and beyond?. Thank you.

Yes, once we return from shot show. Web site is going through a upgrade right now along with user friendly options and new calendar for 2016.

[Wakecrash]

Since major matches like tar heel challenge are 8 stages per day, what about a monthly 4 stage match done twice in one day AM/pm. Individual stages would be like shooting a major match.

1) longer stages

2) cycle more shooters get more fees

3) less stages, perhaps no slow down with individuals resetting, keeps match moving fast.

[kurtm]

Nothing like a sub 4 M.O.A. target as a bonus for the 1X crowd! Might as well just call it "opti-bonus". I can see why folks with an optic loved it! Less than a 10" target at 260 isn't too awful friendly for the 1X guys either.

[JAF1680]

I was at two matches last year that had a 4" square, one at 100 and an optional 4" at 200. Most of the 1X crowd fired two and moved on or never even saw the 4" at 200. I thought it was fine but I run unlimited. It was optional but you got 20 sec bonus so it was not really an option to skip it once the first shooter hit it.