Win AutoComp Loads Like _[what powder]_?

[Grump]

Specific to the 9mm.

More specifically to the 115-gr JHP family.

I'm a QuickLOAD junkie. But even the September 2015 update doesn't have Win AutoComp in the database. Still has Winchester Action Pistol and Ramshot Silhouette though, with barely any differences in the various numerical values for each...

Anyway, I have looked closely at my own load/chrono results in 9mm using WAC, including properly entering case capacity and barrel length data. Based on charge weights, WAC with burn rate adjustments matches okay in loads predicting 26,000 or more PSI, but drifts farther from reality in downloaded settings. Alliant HERCO seems to match my actual results much better, based on charge weights and velocities.

So has anyone played around enough to know what powder most closely matches AutoComp in the 9mm??? Starting with my own speeds and charge data, and assuming similar throats, it appears that a LOT of WAC loads trying to reach Major are right at the bare ragged edge of safety, staying barely under max pressures mainly because of being loaded longer than 1.1 inch...

So, can anyone can help with this???

[mwray]

I shoot 125 grains with WAC. It seems to be a lot like HS-6 but much cleaner. I run 9 major and 7.6 grains of WAC @1.165" puts me at just over 180 PF. I know that's more than one needs but the gun doesn't even run good until about 171 PF

[Hi-Power Jack]

9mm Minor, or 9mm Major?

[mwray]

Major

[Hi-Power Jack]

I may be wrong (sure we'll hear about, if I am) but from what I've read here for the past

six years, I get the impression that while WAC is "at the ragged edge of safety" when

loaded for 9mm MAJOR, it is probably The Safest of the powders to make MAJOR.

They ALL "run the ragged edge".

That's why it's really important to work up loads SLOWLY with a CHRONO, and watch

for BULLET SETBACK. And SQUIBS. And load out long - to at least 1.145" out to

1.17".

I'd venture to guess that HS6 is probably the next closest powder to WAC, but I

doubt it's any "safer".

BUT, thousands of us have fired millions of rounds of 9mm MAJOR in the past ten

years (mostly using WAC or HS6) and had very few problems (except for working

up a load too quickly, or not using a chrono or squibs or bulletsetback).

Good luck with your quest.

[kneelingatlas]

Sorry Jack, but I would classify WAC as one of the more dangerous powders popular for major. Flattened primers are a generally accepted indicator of high chamber pressure and the faster 9 major powders flatten primers more at the same PF than the slower powders. I would call slower powders safer.

The "fast" powders like WAC, CFE, Silhouette typically make major with charges in the 7-8gr range, HS6 in the 8+ range, but the slowest powders to make major in 9X19 like 3N38 and SP2 take over 9gr of powder (both of which have published loads which make major). The only disadvantage to these slower powders is that if you run the press like a drunken sailor they spill all over the shell plate.

To answer Grumps question: CFE Pistol behaves nearly identically to WAC, does you program list it as an option?

[Bkreutz]

Sorry Jack, but I would classify WAC as one of the more dangerous powders popular for major. Flattened primers are a generally accepted indicator of high chamber pressure and the faster 9 major powders flatten primers more at the same PF than the slower powders. I would call slower powders safer.

The "fast" powders like WAC, CFE, Silhouette typically make major with charges in the 7-8gr range, HS6 in the 8+ range, but the slowest powders to make major in 9X19 like 3N38 and SP2 take over 9gr of powder (both of which have published loads which make major). The only disadvantage to these slower powders is that if you run the press like a drunken sailor they spill all over the shell plate.

To answer Grumps question: CFE Pistol behaves nearly identically to WAC, does you program list it as an option?

Not sure If I would classify AC as one of the more dangerous powders for major (JMO) but I do agree that CFE Pistol is the closest. I load the same weight and get the same velocity over the chrono with either powder. I use AC for major and CFE for minor just for fun. (no real reason why, I keep the minor press and the major press loaded with powder) For major I use 6.8 under a 124 at 1.165 for 173PF

Edited December 19, 2015 by Bkreutz

[bwxmas]

I dont even change the powder out if I have CFE, Autocomp, or BE86 in there. Regardless of Caliber. HS6 is right there with them

I will doublecheck the charge, but more times than not, that will be the same too.

They meter the same, and with my loads, shoot the same.

My Favorite is BE86, but I will use any of them.

Mind you, I am not shooting on the ragged edge, but under max, I will use whatever is in the hopper at the time.

If I gave you 5 of each, without telling you, it would be hard for you to tell me which was which.

But in my testing, BE86 would be the most accurate.

Edited December 19, 2015 by bwxmas

[Bkreutz]

I dont even change the powder out if I have CFE, Autocomp, or BE86 in there. Regardless of Caliber. HS6 is right there with them

I will doublecheck the charge, but more times than not, that will be the same too.

They meter the same, and with my loads, shoot the same.

My Favorite is BE86, but I will use any of them.

Mind you, I am not shooting on the ragged edge, but under max, I will use whatever is in the hopper at the time.

If I gave you 5 of each, without telling you, it would be hard for you to tell me which was which.

But in my testing, BE86 would be the most accurate.

The OP was asking about Major PF loads, all 9 major loads are well over the published max loads.

[bwxmas]

I still would not change my method, I would just do one powder at a time.

All 3 powders would be capable of doing what he asks, and then some.

I seriously doubt there would be much difference in the upper end either.

The powders are just too close. I still believe BE86 would come out on top.

I know this is for 9mm,

But this thread from 38super, would be close to 9mm., add autocomp, and it would be right there.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225242

There is not a snitz diference in those 3 powders, it would be whichever worked best.

Edited December 19, 2015 by bwxmas

[Sarge]

CFE and WAC are interchangeable.

[Bkreutz]

CFE and WAC are interchangeable.

Except they sprinkle "copper eraser dust" into the CFE.

[Grump]

CFE and WAC are interchangeable.

Except they sprinkle "copper eraser dust" into the CFE.

Yeah, pretty sure that majick dust is some tin compound or elemental tin. IIRC, the US military played with that either before, during, or after WWI. Before my time, I just read too much.

The latest QuickLOAD powder database has neither AutoComp nor CFE Pistol.

Thus my question. Herco results match what I get from my pistol better than WAP or anything else available.

I also understand that sometimes two powders might match very closely through one range of reloading (light, medium or full-power loads, for example) but won't match very well at all at another power level. Thus my inquiry being focused on top end 9mm loads rather than light "plinking" loads.

[Grump]

Even though I've never laid eyes on BE-86, can someone tell me how "flashy" it is in 9mm and .357?

That's part of my interest in AutoComp--less flash than Power Pistol.

[Sarge]

CFE and WAC are interchangeable.

Except they sprinkle "copper eraser dust" into the CFE.

Yeah, pretty sure that majick dust is some tin compound or elemental tin. IIRC, the US military played with that either before, during, or after WWI. Before my time, I just read too much.

The latest QuickLOAD powder database has neither AutoComp nor CFE Pistol.

Thus my question. Herco results match what I get from my pistol better than WAP or anything else available.

I also understand that sometimes two powders might match very closely through one range of reloading (light, medium or full-power loads, for example) but won't match very well at all at another power level. Thus my inquiry being focused on top end 9mm loads rather than light "plinking" loads.

Time to move on from quick load? If you want to load 9MAJOR the only real loads you will find are right here on the forum. Book high end loads are only about 60-75% of what it takes to make it there

[Grump]

Sarge:

I want to supplement QuickLOAD. By itself, it's not the be-all, end-all of load *estimation*. Like many other things, like driving on snowpacked roads, adding your own informed observations and intelligence is essential.

Among other things, I am aware of the safety margin element--which is why factory so-called +P .38 Special loads don't even reach velocities in real guns that should be quite safely attainable with regular-pressure loads using the correct powders.

And that safety factor is why I won't be trying to make 9mm Major in a 4.4-inch barrel. I still want to find the true velocity limits for some of these non-1911 guns.

But to explore my gun's theoretical limits before I try to work up TOP loads using AutoComp or CFE Pistol or BE-86, I'd really like to explore modifying powder profiles from other ones which appear to load about the same (by charge weight) with the same bullet weight.

And THIS forum is one of the best, if not THE best, for getting first-hand reports from people who are smart enough to play by the Big Boy Rules. After all, it's been like 20+ years since I heard a contemporaneous-ish report of anyone getting "Stupid Face" from trying to make Major with a .355-.357 bore and a 5-inch barrel. Like everyone who has mentioned it here says, powder choice makes all the difference.

Though I would rather add something like BE-86 to my expanding list of pistol powders (before the first shortage, I had standardized on two for almost everything, but both became Unobtanium for many months at a time), if it winds up being HS-6 then so be it. Especially if HS-6 is low(er) flash.

Now I guess I'm off to dig up some reports on flashiness for BE-86, CFE Pistol, and HS-6...I'd just stick with Power Pistol if it wasn't a W-W 296 emulator as a handgun flashlight maker.

[mchapman]

I don't load to major PF, but I do use a lot of Auto Comp and BE-86, I use both powders for 9mm 38 short colt 38 spcl, and 45 acp. BE-86 is real close to Power Pistol but with a flash suppresant in it, both are clean burning in my experiance