Origins of 140mm/170mm mag rule?

[Matt in TN]

I'm just curious - these seem like such random numbers/lengths to put in a rule. Where did they come from?

[ivan]

A little voice in the back of my head says "measure the overall length of a 10 round 45 1911 mag".

But I can't claim this is fact.

-ivan-

p.s. be warned: sometimes that voice is brilliant, at other times, it's clueless... so I usually take a poll of all the other voices in my head to decide whether to believe it.

Edited October 17, 2015 by ivan

[9x45]

ivan I believe you are correct. A long time ago, in a time before double stack magazines and wide body frames, there was only the 1911. Everything is based on something that came before. Now will some make a 170 mm double stack 1911 similar to the SureFire mag? Now that would be clever..

[ChuckS]

ivan I believe you are correct. A long time ago, in a time before double stack magazines and wide body frames, there was only the 1911. Everything is based on something that came before. Now will some make a 170 mm double stack 1911 similar to the SureFire mag? Now that would be clever..

And quite a handful...

[9x45]

It would have to be scaled to fit pistol calibers.

[dolbyconnor]

You've got to look back to the scene in the late 80's/early 90's. There wasn't any Open/Limited back then; IIRC, the only other division was Revolver. Compensators were around and the cool kids were using .38 Super with 135gr. CP Elites, but a lot of folks were still shooting .45acp (.40 was just starting to show up). At the same time, the idea of doublestack guns shooting a Major-capable caliber was just starting to go mainstream. You gotta remember, back then, people were super freaked out about pressure and "Super Face," and most shooting .38 super major were doing it with relatively heavy bullets, first with160gr RNL (Magma mold) and then with 147gr RN (lighter bullets followed). Even the rare folks shooting 9mm Major were using heavy bullets loaded out long in .38 super mags. There were no double stack guns (or at least none commonly available) that would accept a .45acp/.38 Super length round; all the double stacks were 9x19, and virtually no one was shooting 9 Major at 9x19 lengths. There were a couple outliers like the one guy out in Colorado running 9 Major in a CZ-75, and mad scientist/gunsmith Jim Boland had figured out how to cut a 1911 in half and reweld it up to take HK P7M13 mags, but doublestacks shooting Major were *really* rare.

Then, Para-Ordnance started making frame kits (they didn't even sell complete guns back then) and folks figured out if you built a gun with a one of their kits, you'd almost double your mag capacity in .45acp to 14+1. Shortly thereafter, Chip McCormick (which later split into Tripp/STI/SVI) and Caspian came out with their frame kits. This part is conjecture, but wanting to forestall another arms race, the BOD decided to create Open and Limited Divisions and limit magazine length to 140mm in Limited, and to 170mm in Open, the idea being that singlestacks would be able to achieve close to parity with doublestacks in Open by running 10-round singlestack mags. However, no one thought to restrict the 170mm length allowance to only singlestack mags (which I think was a *big* oversight), and shortly thereafter the "big stick" was born. Round counts ballooned, mag changes in Open were largely eliminated, and I guess most folks were happy.

[Steve RA]

When they first came out I used a 17L glock with 130gr WW .38 Super bullets and 4756 powder in Open until 9Major was outlawed. Just used "range" brass and CCI SRPs and let it lay after firing. Never had a bit of trouble with the gun running major.

Actually the CMC frame was designed and built by STI, Chip was just the sales agent for them. After a fairly short period of time they took over the sales themselves. I had one of the first ones, the frame kit came with one mag and originally you could not buy any additional ones so the first few matches I shot with it were a little difficult at some stages . Not too terribly long after that you could beg another mag which alleviated the problem.

[titandriver]

Couple points of correction: 9Major was never outlawed, what was mandated was a minimum overall length of 1.26 (might've been 1.250) which precluded lighter weight bullets in the 9x19 case. Paul Miller was the guy in Colorado who shot 9Major and he used 160 grain bullets - cast, I believe, by his company - in his 1911 pattern pistol. The double-stack pistols magazines at the time could not handle the long loaded length mandated which gave birth to the 9x21 in those pistols.

[Bob Hostetter]

Actually ......

In the beginning the part of the magazine that held the spring/follower/ammo had to be flush with the bottom of the grip. When the 38 Super became popular and we were able to get 10 rounds in the magazine 45 acp based single stack guns were allowed to run the 170mm long 10 round magazines. After the STI came along and set the new standard and when the Caspian was released, it used a magazine that extended past the end of the grip in order to hold the same amount of ammo as an STI. In order to make it legal and competitive the rules were changed to allow for the length of the current Caspian mag at 140mm.

The 9x19 major issue was indeed banned by OAL and as such wasn't usable in the double stack guns in use at the time (Glock, CZ, EAA, S&W, etc). and the 38 Super was a better choice in the single stack guns, as a result causing it's use to die off. Then someone discovered the 9x21 case achieved the same thing as the old 9x19 case and away we went on that. S&W came out with their version called the TSW which was used in their team guns.

Regarding the STI guns the orginial was designed and built by Virgil Tripp (The TRP). It's second life was as the CMC which is when it was Chip McCormicks toy. The 3rd and where it really started to grow was after Dave Skinner stepped in and created STI. A short time after that Strayer and Skinner broke up their partnership and SVI was created. The patents have now expired and you are starting to see other people make the basic frame.

There were two mad scientists in California coverting 1911's to double stack's. Boland was the most famous and was considered by many to be one of the greatest metalsmiths ever to build pistol. His pistols were works of art requiring unbelievable amounts of handwork. The other was Mac at Mac's 45 Shop in Seal Beach. His stuff was average looking at best but very functional. Boland used a variety of magazines to base his hi cap guns on, Mac focused of S&W 59 mags. I still have one of Mac's hi cap 1911 frames in the safe somewhere.

As all of the above was happening we were competing in a single equipment division, basically buy/build what you thought was the best platform and show up and see if you were right. As we went along it became clear that the advantages of the comp/dot were to much to overcome so Open/Limited divisions were created. It was felt that the longer magazines (170mm) were more of a fit in Open so their use was restricted to that division.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Bob Hostetter

[dolbyconnor]

9x19 was banned by specific caliber, not OAL. Folks started running 9x21 and .356 TSW but the rounds were loaded to the same 1.150", or whatever regular 9x19 OAL is...it was just a technicality to get around the "no 9x19 major" rule.

IIRC, Tripp designed the frame, but McCormick was the first to market it. I remember having my CMC frame before I saw TRI frames around.

Anyone measure the length of a 10-round .45acp 1911 mag yet?

Edited November 9, 2015 by dolbyconnor

[titandriver]

9x19 was banned by specific caliber, not OAL.

Ummm - no. From the BOD meeting 01 July 1990: WHEREAS empirical evidence has been presented to the Board of Directors that raises serious questions of safety regarding the loading of 9mm (9X19) ammunition so that it can achieve the major power factor of 175,000,

NOW THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED, that the use of 9mm Parabellum (9X19) ammunition with an overall length of less than 1.250 inches AND LOADED TO THE MAJOR POWER FACTOR CATEGORY is specifically prohibited and will not be allowed to be used in USPSA events until such time as the Board of Directors can be assured by clear and

[Jim Watson]

Yup.

I had a 9mm Miller Major and it shot like a champ.

When I dismantled it as single stack iron sighted comp guns were obsoleted by double stack 1911 mutants and optical sights, it was pretty battered inside.

[ChuckS]

9x19 was banned by specific caliber, not OAL.

Ummm - no. From the BOD meeting 01 July 1990: WHEREAS empirical evidence has been presented to the Board of Directors that raises serious questions of safety regarding the loading of 9mm (9X19) ammunition so that it can achieve the major power factor of 175,000,

NOW THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED, that the use of 9mm Parabellum (9X19) ammunition with an overall length of less than 1.250 inches AND LOADED TO THE MAJOR POWER FACTOR CATEGORY is specifically prohibited and will not be allowed to be used in USPSA events until such time as the Board of Directors can be assured by clear and

Wow, there you go screwing up a perfectly good argument with facts! (Thanks )

[Steve RA]

Good information, now when was it changed back so that shorter 9mm rounds were legal again ???

[Bamboo]

My recollection is that the timing of the different frames was something like this: Single Stack 1911 > custom one-off 1911 double wides > ParaOrdnance > CZ clones running 9x21 > Caspian > modular plastic grip guns (Tripp/CMC). The old Front Sight mag has ads that give a good idea on the timing of these offerings. I recall the CMC frame being advertised but were hard to get for quite a while and the Caspian had a strong following early on. I had a Caspian Frame in fall of 1991 and had a running gun in early 1992. In 1993 the 170mm mags became legal. I felt back then as I still do - that 140mm double stack mag/170mm single stack mag should have been the rule for both Open and Limited, but that is just me.

Another thread about the history of the 140/170mm mags.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25646

The BOD Minutes gives some insights into this also:

Sept 1992 –

MOTION: John Sayle moved that effective January 1, 1993, magazines up to 170 mm in overall

length including any bumpers, pads, accessories attached thereto may be used on an experimental

basis in both limited and unlimited open classes. The U.S. will propose to the World Assembly that

this same rule apply to IPSC standard class. 2nd. Passed unanimously.

Footnote to above motion: Measurement of magazine is to be along the longest straight side. The

BOD requested Dave to send a diagram and letter to J.P. Denis requesting verification on how the

magazine should be measured.

Jan 1993-

170mm MAGAZINES

The Board reviewed correspondence that had been received at headquarters. Straw vote was split

4-4 on allowing the longer magazine. Discussion during lunch break.

Meeting reconvened at 1:10 pm

After lengthy discussion, the BOD agreed the 170mm magazine would be legal in limited category

as a test only during 1993. The issue will be brought before the World Assembly in September.

Jan 1994 –

MOTION: John Sayle moved that extended magazines in Limited Category competition be

restricted to a maximum length of 170 mm and be allowed in single column guns only. 2nd.

Passed. 1 opposed.

July 1994 –

LIMITED CRITERIA

John Amidon proposed simplified rules for Limited; iron sights only, no ports or

compensators, including slide and frame, one manufacturer of ammunition,

magazines flush with the butt of the gun except for 170mm in single stack.

Discussion followed. No action was taken.

Feb 1995 –

MOTION: Jeff Nelson moved that US 2.12 (v) be modified as follows, "Limited Division

magazines-For Limited division guns using single stacked (not staggered-column) magazines, the

magazine may extend to 170 mm including base plates and base plate attachments. For Limited

division guns using double-stacked magazines, (or staggered-column), the magazine may extend to

140 mm including base plates and base plate attachments. 2nd. Passed unanimously.

Aug 1999 –

Vice President John Amidon presented to the Board a measuring devise to measure magazines for 170mm. It was decided that the device will be sent back for some modifications. Once these modifications have been completed, the measuring device will become the property of USPSA and will be used by the Area Directors for their matches and at the National Championship Matches.

May 2000 –

President Michael Voigt called for an electronic meeting on May 25, 2000. The purpose of this meeting is to approve the final version of the magazine length gauge as the official USPSA magazine measuring tool.

Motion by Troy McManus: Area 4 moves to accept the magazine length gauge, as made by EGW, as the official USPSA magazine measuring tool. Seconded by Area 3-Rick Hebert.

Vote: Decision: Passed unanimously

Discussion: The new gauge will be available for shooters to purchase directly from EGW. The gauge used by USPSA Match Officials will be differentiated by color.

Also, here is the full BoD ruling restricting 9x19 and 38 super loaded to major:

https://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/19900709.pdf

And here is where they talk about rescinding the 9x19 ruling.

Bod Minutes Nov 2002:

9mm Major for Open Division

Background: Members have asked BOD to re-evaluate a resolution from 1990 prohibiting the use of 9X19 ammunition loaded to less that 1.250 overall length for use with the 175pf major caliber and also 38 super loading criteria. A resolution drafted by corporate attorney was presented to Board, see Attachment 15E. (below)

WHEREAS one of the principal obligations of the Board of Directors of the United States Practical Shooting Association is to encourage the development of equipment and techniques that will safely advance the craft of practical shooting in a sporting atmosphere; and

WHEREAS the Board, based on information available at the time, adopted a Resolution on July 9, 1990, prohibiting the use of .38 Super ammunition using jacketed bullets of less than 150 grains, or lead bullets of less than 143 grains, and loaded to the 175,000 major power factor category, unless fully supported chambers are employed; and

WHEREAS the Board, based on information available at the time, adopted a Resolution on July 9, 1990, prohibiting the use of 9mm (9X19) with an overall length of less than 1.250 inches and loaded to the 175,000 major power factor category; and

WHEREAS technology, products and conditions have changed since 1990; and

WHEREAS it is not the intention of the USPSA Board of Directors to neither endorse any product, nor can information provided by the Board substitute for the research and judgment of individual members;

NOW THEREFORE, IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED that the prohibitions described in the Resolutions of July 9, 1990 are hereby rescinded. With this action, the Board does not intend to imply any opinion as to the safety of such ammunition, but recognizes that informed opinions may vary and encourages individual members and match participants to choose ammunition that is consistent with applicable USPSA match rules and is safe for use with their equipment and in conditions under which they compete.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Bamboo