Grip " Still Confused "

[Ray_Z]

I've done a search on this. Everything I've read leads me to believe that the proper open grip would be one that has great pressure more on the sides of the grips than actually squeezing it. Also, how much is enough? Can I grip the gun too firmly? If I double tap as fast as I think I should the dot never seems to stop bouncing. If these questions seem a little stupid, keep in mind that I've been stuck in "C open" for 8 years.

[Loves2Shoot]

I've done a search on this. Everything I've read leads me to believe that the proper open grip would be one that has great pressure more on the sides of the grips than actually squeezing it. Also, how much is enough? Can I grip the gun too firmly? If I double tap as fast as I think I should the dot never seems to stop bouncing. If these questions seem a little stupid, keep in mind that I've been stuck in "C open" for 8 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You probably don't have your wrists locked properly. You have to have someone who reeally knows show you and then it will feel so weird you'll just have to trust them. You don't have to grip an open gun that hard if you have the correct form.

Double tap? Curse that evil word. Your splits to empty the entire mag should be the same as two in a row.

[Clay1]

Ray, I don't have a definative answer for you. Just a couple of comments. Have you seen the Matt Burkett line of DVDs?

If you are stuck and would like to move forward perhaps a hands on face to face training session or number of sessions with a quality instructor like Matt or one of the other highly qualified trainers is in order. Think about the cost of all of that ammo and the time shooting and I think you will see a bargain in front of you.

You and I are probably never going to be master class shooters. I will tell you this, we can be better shooters than we are today with some help, proper direction and dedicated practice doing things the right way.

Good luck to both of us my friend.

Rick

[SmittyFL]

I think this is one of the many things is shooting that you have to figure out what works for you.

A lot of top shooters will tell you to have a neutral grip without too much pressure. Good advice, if it works for you. I grip the shit out of the gun, most of it with the weak hand. I took a course with Garcia, 1800 rounds in two days and was literally bleeding afterwords, and I don't have any sharp edges on my gun, it was just from pressure.

It's not that I try or make a conscious effort to grip hard, it's just the way I do it. I wouldn't advise or teach this grip specifically, but if nothing else is working I don't see any harm in experimenting.

If you think your grip is a problem, then just try something else. Just like the guys that invented what we do now did. They didn't listen to anybody, just tried a bunch of weird different stuff until they found what worked for them. That is the key......what works for you.

[dirtypool40]

I am always working on how to get a tighter, but neutral grip.

There's a thread on this somewhere, and I think the consensus was that despite what you hear or read, the top guys are CRUSHING the gun.

One thing that helped me neutralize a little was to come in behind with the suport / left hand. I feel pressure pushing the nails of my strong / right hand forward when I have the grip right.

I have only taken two courses, one with TJ and one with the Burner, but both of them showed me a variation of this technique.

Holding the left hand up there, and slamming the gun into it, ala WEAVER it's easy to get into a push pull thing, and wrap your hand back towards yourself. You tend to tense up your shoulders and triceps too much.

For ME, coming in behind allows me to grip harder and stay pretty relaxed. (It also keeps you from sweeping your fingers if your timing is a little off).

[XRe]

DP.... so, you're saying they told you to push/pull, but use iso?? Or is it more like Burkett's "positive forward pressure" technique (ie, you don't spend a bunch of energy push/pull, but instead focus on pushing out... I don't understand what you mean by "come in behind w/ the support/left hand". Do you mean pushing the hands towards each other across the *sides* of the gun (vs front to back like Weaver)??? If so, I can see where that might end up more neutral than trying to squeeze w/ the weak hand (which tends to pull the gun one way or the other, if not careful).

It seems like the grip strength you need on the gun definitely depends on the gun, your loads, etc. Shooting a limited gun requires a lot more grip strength for me than an Open gun - which requires a lot more strength than shooting, say, a .22.

[Loves2Shoot]

Why would you want to exert pressure side to side? If you want to manage recoil the pressure towards the bottom of the front of the grip. This counters the pressures exerted at the pivot point (top of the strong hand.) That is why getting the left hand turned all the way forward allows you to do this with minimal effort. When the tendon of the weakhand wrist is fully rotated forward it is ten times stronger with a fraction of the effort. The same thing comes into play with the strong hand but in the opposite, being nearly fully contracted. It is not so much push pull, but more locking out both wrists in opposite ways and squeezing them together front to back, then inwards. You can squeeze as hard as you want and if you have the proper technique it won't change the point of aim one bit.

This grip is very neutral and requires minimal strength to achieve (my 10 year old nephew can shoot full power .40 loads using this technique.)

You can grip the hell out of the gun, but if your grip is incorrect you won't get the maximum benefit, you'll probably just make it harder on yourself.

[XRe]

I'm just tryin' to figure out what the dude's saying

[dirtypool40]

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was NOT to push / pull like Weaver.

As far as "coming in behind", I meant;

Get your right hand grip, hold the gun up close about where you would for a reload, and pointed at the target.

The grip (again just for ME) for the left hand to join the party begins at the left edge of the MS Housing and rolls forward. The LAST thing to happen is to wrap the fingers around the front strap and squeeze.

I feel it in the nails of my right hand, and leave indentions of them in my left hand, not from pulling as if I wrapped the fingers around from my right knuckles rearward.

Does any of that make sense? Because now I am confused!

What I'm looking for is rigidity in space, not a forward lean waiting for something to pull against.

As an aside, this type of grip forming makes it easier to re-establish after a load, in fact that's really similar. The push / pull thing makes me take an extra step to re-grip after a load. Again, just my $.02.

[XRe]

That makes a lot more sense, thanks I may have to play w/ that a bit.

For me (currently), the left hand enters the game at about the "clapping point"** - first contact is the third joint (closest to the palm) of my left first finger meeting the underside of the trigger guard and right ring finger. The grip is completed by rolling/camming the left hand forward as the gun extends, which naturally leads to the fingers rolling around, and the palm making contact on the left side of the grip. With this technique, it really helps to have the underside of the trigger guard checkered or roughened - it allows that left index finger to lock into the gun, and appears to give you more leverage on the gun than without it.

** - clapping point - close your eyes, and go to clap, as if for a musical performance or something. Stop on the first clap. Open your eyes. Where are your hands?? This is a natural place for your hands to meet, and one your body finds very easily.

[Ray_Z]

Wow!! It looks like I'm going to have to print this out and take it with me to the range the next time I practice.

DP are you saying that you bring the gun up but close to your face, then push it out and into your left hand on the way to your extended position just befor you fire?

[diehli]

Why would you want to exert pressure side to side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dunno, but that's what Mike Voigt teaches. You're pushing the gun into the heel of the palm of your hand with the tips of your fingers.

For me (currently), the left hand enters the game at about the "clapping point"** - first contact is the second joint (closest to the palm, but not at the palm) of my left first finger meeting the underside of the trigger guard and right middle finger. The grip is completed by rolling/camming the left hand forward as the gun extends, which naturally leads to the fingers rolling around, and the palm making contact on the left side of the grip. With this technique, it really helps to have the underside of the trigger guard checkered or roughened - it allows that left index finger to lock into the gun, and appears to give you more leverage on the gun than without it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same for me (though I edited to reflect more closely what I do... edited parts in bolded italics). DP's way seems to have extra counter-intuitive motion involved that you've got to train in... plus it seems easier to miss the grip. Whatever... diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

[Flexmoney]

Ray,

You can work on your grip without the draw. That might prove helpful for a while.

A couple of key things:

- The palms of your hands should touch. Burkett, on one of his DVD's takes a majic marker and marks a witness line at this point...so you can see if the line aligns every time you establish your grip.

- The weak hand should be cammed into the gun. If you open your weak hand, the finger should point toward the ground at about a 45 degree angle.

(I have some pictures around here that demo the above. Did you find them when you searched?)

- You should have a bit more pressure exerted by your weak hand (than your strong hand). The strong hand should allow the trigger finger to move independently of the rest of the grip. Too tight with the strong hand...and you will milk the grip.

- Burkett also has some timing drills on his website: http://www.mattburkett.com/html/10.html

The timing drills explore various grip strengths.

For now, I would work the grip by itself. Don't worry about incorporating the draw just yet.

Also, you said something very important in your first post:

If I double tap as fast as I think I should the dot never seems to stop bouncing.

First off...that double tap comment. No top shooter double-taps...period. I know it may seem like the top shooters are double-tapping when they shoot as fast as they do. They aren't. There is no one sight picture and two triger pulls. Each shot is fired with vision...not timing...not "pull the trigger NOW because the gun should be going off." Shooters would likely be better served to remove "double-tap" from their vocabulary.

That you are seing that the dot never seems to stop bouncing is a good thing. Use that vision to decide if the next shot will be an Alpha. If it won't, choose not to take the shot. (Burkett's timing drills should shed some light on the bouncing stuff.)

[Paladin]

The grip consists of 4 points of pressure: back and front straps from the strong hand and side to side on the grip panels by the support hand...Practice shooting one hand with the front and back grip and notice the muzzle flip and longer time the gun takes to resettle. When you shoot one hand you have to learn to accept this and not try to fight it by muscling the gun. You'll also notice the gun tracks to the side..again all natural dont fight it, learn to accept it. YOUR ONE -HAND GRIP SHOULD BE MORE LIKE HOLDING A PACK OF CARDS RATHER THAN ENCIRCLING THE GUN AS HOW YOU WOULD HOLD A RAILING.

Enter the support hand. With the side to side pressure the muzzle flip will decrease and/or track more consistently and the gun will resettle quicker.. You must also allow the support hand to grip hard whilst relaxing the strong hand.. this improves your trigger control and lessens the possibility of trigger freeze..

The whole point of an effective grip is what I call 'selective tension' and this you have to master to really get an effective grip. Selective tension points are primarily along your support hand at the cammed wrist, the muscles on top of your hands and the fingers wrapped around the strong hand fingers. Your upper back and shoulders should also have a 'little' tension as it supports the gun in the vertical plane. You have got to STRENGTHEN AND IMPROVE THE STAMINA OF YOUR SUPPORT HAND.

Practice this against a berm (no targets) and watch how the sights behave as you change tension levels in your grip...do this until you begin to see CONSISTENCY IN THE SIGHT TRACKING..THIS BUILDS TIMING AND THIS PROCESS WILL ALMOST INEVITABLY SHRINK YOUR GROUPS.

[Loves2Shoot]

Why would you want to exert pressure side to side?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dunno, but that's what Mike Voigt teaches. You're pushing the gun into the heel of the palm of your hand with the tips of your fingers.

Lots of ways to say the same thing

Nice posts Flex and Paladin

[Liota]

Ray,

I would second the recommendation for Matt's video. I would also add The Burner's video. He covers grip very well in the first tape.

Liota

[Duane Thomas]

Why would you want to exert pressure side to side?

Because it stops lateral stringing of shots.

[BSeevers]

Aw Grip It and Rip It

All of the above posts are demonstrating that:

1. You are "balancing" out the recoil/recovery to be consistant

2. The real measure is a timer and a target. Are you getting "A" shots on target in a "proper" amount of time?

PS Hand strength counts too. Don't need to be Arnold but a little is good.

[aXXman]

Today I am sick, but I did a bit of practicing with draws and realized what good grip practice they can be. Loves2shoot showed me a proper grip last weekend, and although I had read this thread I did not realize how much the left hand needs to rotate forward. I have been redrawing the marks he put on my hands every day. Until today I had not really cared about draw practice since you only do it once a stage if that, but getting gripped on the gun the same every time will surely make you more consistent no matter how you do it.

(a newbie perspective)

-Shawn

[Merlin Orr]

It is amazing how many times I had read the "rotate the left hand" line before I finally DID rotate my grip around. It makes a huge difference in the amount of muzzle rise due to recoil.

My mental denseness never ceases to amaze - and discourage - me.