First time reloader, likely stupid questions, help please

[Southpaw]

This will probably be pretty long, but would appreciate any help for a brand new reloader.

I reloaded my first rounds ever last night and chronoed them today. Used a Lee Classic Turret press. Load is Everglades 147gr FMJ with WST. Using the Auto Disk powder measure so only have a few choices of powder weight. I couldn't find exact load data for this bullet/powder so started off I think pretty conservative.

First issue I encountered while reloading was that the rounds wouldn't pass a case gauge. At first they also wouldn't pass a plunk test in Glock 34 and STI Trojan barrels when loaded to 1.15". I lowered the OAL to 1.135" and now they pass the plunk test in both barrels, but still won't pass the case gauge (see pic #1 below).

My guess is it's due to the bullet profile. The bullet stays straight and doesn't start rounding off until pretty high up (pic #2). I'm thinking these high, flat sides are the issue? The factory ammo I've been shooting is 1.155" so the barrels can handle that OAL. I also tried increasing the crimp and that didn't do anything to help with the case gauge, so just don't worry about it?

Now onto the chrono:

Results below (pic #3). Doesn't that look like a pretty large standard deviation and extreme spread for the 3.55gr and 3.8gr loads? I don't know what caused that. I measured the powder drop and OAL for every one of the 30 rounds and used all Federal brass to try to get consistent results.

I don't know much about signs of over-pressure. Looking at the brass for some of the 3.8gr loads it looks like maybe the primers on some of them were flattening out a bit (pic #4). Pretty hard to tell in this pic, but each row are a few of the cases from each bullet weight in order (3.3gr, 3.55gr, 3.8gr). The 3.8gr in the bottom row, cases 2-4 from the left look a bit flat to me. Should I be concerned, this load is still only 130pf, shouldn't have over-pressure yet, right?

Also, looking inside the cases looks like there's some unburnt powder? Saw it on all powder weights (pic #5). What's up with this?

bullet profile:

Chrono results. I also tested some CCI for comparison which had a lower std deviation than most of the reloads. I don't know what's up with shot #10 for the 3.3gr @ 1,279 fps. I didn't include that shot in the calculations below. That shot didn't feel hotter than the rest and I definitely did not do a double charge (which wouldn't have fit anyway).

Couldn't get a great pic, but bottom row 2nd through 4th from left is some of the 3.8gr loads, primers a little flat?

Unburnt powder?

[tcazes]

So the profile has a very high ogive, which is the point at which the bullet meets the rifling. This could very well cause an issue with the plunk test. You could either shorten the load, as you have and made it work, or switch bullets. Me personally, I feel there are better bullet profiles out there and would switch.

As far as the case gauge. I use a dillon case gauge. They have the tightest tolerances but a crimp of .380 still plunks perfectly every time. I say, bell the case enough to just start the bullet then crimp only barely enough to remove the bell. You don't need much if any crimp for 9mm.

Are you using a scale to weigh your charge precisely? Don't put all of your faith on the powder drop. Wst is a very fine flake powder and can have metering issues in certain powder drops. I'd suggest an rcbs Rangemaster digital scale or something similar. That will rule out charge issues for velocity.

All primers looked ok to me really. For 147s I'd stick around 900fps and definitely under 1000 for sure. I like 900-920 for mine.

The unburnt powder indicates incomplete combustion. Weather it be from to much powder to too much pressure. You will have to play with it to see but I can assure you this, I always have unburnt powder with wst a d wsf. Vhitavuori n320, n310, N340 all burn completely so I think it's just the nature of winchester powders really....someone else can chime in on that.

[kneelingatlas]

"The factory ammo I've been shooting is 1.155" so the barrels can handle that OAL."

I recommend sending this idea down the memory hole. I have some 147s I can load to 1.140", others touch the rifling at 1.070"; the best case gauge is the barrel of the pistol through which you plan to shoot the ammo.

[Beastly]

When I started loading 9mm / 147's I wrestled with this. BTW I shoot only Bayou Bullets - polymer coated. I was loading for a Glock 34 at 1.125-1.135 (it changed over time).

9mm cases get thicker towards the case head. Longer 147 bullets seated deeper will bulge the case more and cause more case gauge failures.

A few options:

- I went from Dillon to a Hornady New Dimension seating die with a floating sleeve to help center the bullets better. I think it helped a little.

- Be pickier about your brass. I like to load virtually all of my brass on a 1050 now so this isn't a good plan for me but it was when I was using a 550 without a swager.

- I swapped from 147's to 135's. Never could measure any performance difference although I can feel and hear the difference. 135's take more (edit: corrected, thanks HPJack!) powder and have fewer CG failures than 147's. IMHO I think the heaviest bullet/softest shooting thing is conventional wisdom espoused by people who would far get more benefit from buying larger #'s of cheaper bullets and practicing more.

- A Lee FCD can fix some of the issues. Some think the FCD is the devil with respect to accuracy. After I went to 135's I went back to a tape crimp die and just barely straighten out the flare.

Save your case gauge failures, sort them by severity and plunk test them. Depending on your barrel many will plunk test just fine. I use the ones that pass the CG test for match ammo and shoot the rest in practice.

I haven't shot WST but I did shoot N320 and not shoot ETR-7. Never noticed the unburnt power issue.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Beastly

[Hi-Power Jack]

135's take less powder than 147's.

Actually, the heavier bullet will take less powder to make PF.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Primers look fine - sounds like shortening your OAL worked and solved the problem.

I don't use gauges - I use the chamber - only thing that matters.

Four of your ten shots were under PF - I'd run 20 more thru the chrono and see what

happens. I like ALL my 20 shots to be 125 PF - that might mean bumping up to

3.9 ??

What do the reloading books say is max for WST?

[Balakay]

"IMHO I think the heaviest bullet/softest shooting thing is conventional wisdom espoused by people who would far get more benefit from buying larger #'s of cheaper bullets and practicing more."

Opinions on this issue:

http://38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

For a new reloader, there is a lot more load data available for 147g than 135 g bullets

[blackhand]

I'm also new to reloading and use the same case gauge for my 9mm loads. Most of the rounds that don't pass the case gauge were due to a bullet profile that required a shorter OAL. A crimp of .378" is enough for the EGW gauge, provided the OAL is correct. I've been using coated lead bullets, which are supposedly a little thicker than plated or jacketed bullets. I've found that I can load truncated cone or flat point bullets a little longer than round nose bullets from different manufacturers. On occasion, I've had rounds not pass the case gauge because the brass was bulged near the bottom. I usually pull those rounds and toss the brass.

If you're not tied to shooting FMJs, try loading some coated lead bullets. They're cheaper than FMJ, require a little less powder per charge, and shoot very accurately.

[Vassago]

Don't use a case gauge to check oal, if it plunks OAL is fine.

[Beastly]

135's take less powder than 147's.

Actually, the heavier bullet will take less powder to make PF.

My bad, I got that backwards.

[Sarge]

If I read your chart right you had a 1279 in the mix? You need to figure that out sooner rather than later.

Looks like maybe your cases could be sized a little lower? Crank that sizer down until it kisses the plate. Make sure to use plenty of lube so it doesn't scrunch up the case at the bottom.

Primers are fine and keep shooting 147's if you like them. I can load 115-147 with no gauging problems so all you have to do is figure out where you may be making minor mistakes.

Don't sweat things like unburned powder. Worry about that after you get everything to shoot consistently and safely, and once you can get the sizing issues worked out.

Careful over crimping. Too much crimp causes more problems than too little crimp.

Make notes of gauge failures. Look to see if maybe it's certain headstamps. If it is then you are on the way to working it out.

Yes, if it fits the barrel that's all that matters but I still like to use a gauge myself. Teach yourself to know what still works in the gun after failing gauge. This can save some ammo you may be too worried about.

By looking at your gauge picture those are really close to passing. Look for burrs in the extractor groove which is common in failures of this type for me.

All very good questions. There are plenty of dumb questions on these forums but nothing to do with reloading ammo safely is a dumb question.

[biglou13]

while often it is COAL there are other reasons you will get failure to plunk.

try coating some of your fail to plunk/. gauge bullets with sharpie.... insert a few times, the sharpie will wear at contact point...... just another tool in your diagnostic arsenal......

i had a few test cartridges fail recently due under crimping.....

above will also indicate case bulges..... im currently culling out cbc, and aguilla brass (and recently a few ppu issues)

also try rolling a few and check for concentric bullet........ eccentric cartridges may have issue induced at case mouth flaring stage...

i dont own one for 9mm but many will say the lee FCD is unnecessary, and a greater evil vs setting up dies appropriately and culling brass..... at this point probably wont get one.

and sometimes, albeit rarely a bullet is out of spec.

another cause could be sized case legnth

like the guys above said measure as much as you can and take notes case length, flare, crimp (empty case), coal, bullet length, bullet dia.. (case wall .... but that's a whole different thing)

the case gauge is nice.... and pricey..... but if i was competing i'd prolly plunk all, right now i just plunk every 3-5

i'm loading for MOAz minute of A zone. careful you might become a benchrest person.

feel free to ask questions there are far more experienced hand loaders here.... i'm happy to help diagnose and possibly help fix any problems.... (aka there are no stupid questions)

Edited August 3, 2015 by biglou13

[Southpaw]

Thanks all for the replies! I'm brand new to reloading so pretty much everything I know has come from this forum and youtube

What're everyone's thoughts on the large standard deviation and extreme spread on the 3.55gr and 3.8gr loads? Would you feel comfortable with this? 85fps seems like a really large extreme spread, right? What is the likely cause for this and what can I do to bring this down? I did use a powder scale (didn't rely on powder drop) and I measured every single powder drop and OAL for all of those rounds. The 3.3gr and 3.55gr drops were very consistent, the 3.8gr one was a bit less, almost all still within 1 grain. Another thing I thought was interesting is I noted the powder drop on the #10 round under 3.8gr was actually 3.6gr, but that was one of the fastest shots

Forgot to mention, but I'm also using Lee dies including the FCD. The instructions say half a turn past touching the case for a light crimp and a full turn for heavy crimp. I had it a bit past half a turn and had a crimp of .377". How do you all have your FCD adjusted? Should I loosen it up a bit? Any other adjustments I might want to do to my dies that I'm not aware of? I think I have the seating die set so it's not crimping, I don't think I'm belling too much, but not sure how exactly to measure this, and the resizing die is all the way down touching the shell holder.

If I read your chart right you had a 1279 in the mix? You need to figure that out sooner rather than later.
Looks like maybe your cases could be sized a little lower? Crank that sizer down until it kisses the plate. Make sure to use plenty of lube so it doesn't scrunch up the case at the bottom.
Primers are fine and keep shooting 147's if you like them. I can load 115-147 with no gauging problems so all you have to do is figure out where you may be making minor mistakes.

Don't sweat things like unburned powder. Worry about that after you get everything to shoot consistently and safely, and once you can get the sizing issues worked out.

Yes you did read that correctly . WTF is up with that? Could it be a bad reading on the chrono? I had it in the shade, but was only standing maybe 5-6 feet away instead of 10 since that's as far back as I could move and keep it in the shade. That round didn't feel any hotter than the rest and I would think if I loaded a 147gr going that fast I'd see serious pressure signs on the primer, right? I didn't see anything on that case. So I'm just passing it off as a chrono error, or should I be more concerned?

I have the resizing die touching the shell plate. I did not use any lube. The Lee sizing die has a carbide ring so I don't need lube, right? I can understand still using lube on a progressive press, but I thought I'd be alright without it on the turret press.

I guess what I'm most uncertain about is I don't even know if I'm making minor mistakes or have sizing issues like you said?? How do I even know if I'm doing anything wrong?! At this point with reloading I don't even know what I don't know. I'm assuming the case gauge failures were due to the bullet ogive, but if there's more I should look at I don't even know what that is

Four of your ten shots were under PF - I'd run 20 more thru the chrono and see what

happens. I like ALL my 20 shots to be 125 PF - that might mean bumping up to

3.9 ??

What do the reloading books say is max for WST?

Yeah 3.9 would be nice, but I don't love how this auto disk powder measure doesn't give you as many options. If I go up to the next hole size it'll probably be closer to 4.1gr. I was thinking maybe keep the 3.8gr, but drop the OAL to 1.3" or 1.25" to get a few more fps out of it?

Finding max loads is another thing that's been confusing me. For many of the bullet/powder combos I've been looking at this data doesn't seem to be available. Winchester doesn't provide load data for WST in 9mm and neither does the Lyman manual I got (which seems to be pretty useless overall compared to the info on this forum unless I missed something). So I've just been going by loads posted on here, but don't know how to determine the max load.

The unburnt powder indicates incomplete combustion. Weather it be from to much powder to too much pressure. You will have to play with it to see but I can assure you this, I always have unburnt powder with wst a d wsf. Vhitavuori n320, n310, N340 all burn completely so I think it's just the nature of winchester powders really....someone else can chime in on that.

That's good to know unburnt powder is normal for Winchester powder, so this looks like what you usually get? In that picture those are brass from each of the 3 powder weights I tried, so not sure how that could be an indication of too much powder/pressure since the 3.3gr is way too light, right?

If you're not tied to shooting FMJs, try loading some coated lead bullets. They're cheaper than FMJ, require a little less powder per charge, and shoot very accurately.

I only loaded FMJ because a few friends suggested I start with that so I picked up 1k of these Everglades bullets just to get started. I also have some coated bullets which is what I'll switch to once I shoot up these FMJ and then I'm sure I'll stick with coated going forward.

another cause could be sized case legnth

like the guys above said measure as much as you can and take notes case length, flare, crimp (empty case), coal, bullet length, bullet dia.. (case wall .... but that's a whole different thing)

That's another thing I'm unsure about - what else I should/could be measuring and what to even look for. I measured OAL and crimp on the loaded rounds and measured the powder drops. Should I be checking case OAL on each case before reloading? What other kinds of measurements can I look for to know if I'm doing something wrong?

Thanks again everyone, really appreciate the help!!!

[BeerBaron]

So the profile has a very high ogive, which is the point at which the bullet meets the rifling. This could very well cause an issue with the plunk test. You could either shorten the load, as you have and made it work, or switch bullets. Me personally, I feel there are better bullet profiles out there and would switch.

As far as the case gauge. I use a dillon case gauge. They have the tightest tolerances but a crimp of .380 still plunks perfectly every time. I say, bell the case enough to just start the bullet then crimp only barely enough to remove the bell. You don't need much if any crimp for 9mm.

Are you using a scale to weigh your charge precisely? Don't put all of your faith on the powder drop. Wst is a very fine flake powder and can have metering issues in certain powder drops. I'd suggest an rcbs Rangemaster digital scale or something similar. That will rule out charge issues for velocity.

All primers looked ok to me really. For 147s I'd stick around 900fps and definitely under 1000 for sure. I like 900-920 for mine.

The unburnt powder indicates incomplete combustion. Weather it be from to much powder to too much pressure. You will have to play with it to see but I can assure you this, I always have unburnt powder with wst a d wsf. Vhitavuori n320, n310, N340 all burn completely so I think it's just the nature of winchester powders really....someone else can chime in on that.

I have to disagree on a few of these points.

The egw gauge is tighter than the dillon 9mm gauge. In fact the dillon is one of if not the loosest. Egw, DAA and shock bottle are all tighter than dillon.

I also disagree that he needs a big $ scale. No point measuring powder to the enth degree when the powder drop can only achieve accuracy of around +/- 0.1gn or even more. The popular gem 20 scale at $30 is plenty good enough just to confirm loads.

As sarge mentioned I'd be checking your sizing die is screwed all the way down to just touch the shell holder.

And as kneelingatlas mentioned just because your pistol shoots one bullet shape at a certain length does not mean you can load every bullet type to that length. Oal is influenced a lot by the shape of the ogive of the particular bullet you're using.

Primers look ok to me.

Heavy bullets with light charges actually are prone to high pressure. My 9mm load with clays or n320 behind either a 135 or 147gn CMJ flatten primers much worse than my 38 super major loads with a 124gn going 1400fps. People often believe that because the load produce lower fps it must be 'safe'. Not always the case.

Try shorter oal

Try checking sizing die is right down

Consider using the factory crimp die for crimp (again make sure it's right down to the shell holder)

[Southpaw]

Thanks BeerBaron. The Gem 20 is actually the scale I'm using. It seems to work quite well so far, except I wish it didn't auto shutoff so quickly.

That's interesting to hear about a higher chance of over-pressure even with 9mm minor. I think I might have bought into the idea that faster powder is better for softer shooting a bit too much and maybe should have started with something a bit slower. All I have right now is WST and N320, haven't tried loading the N320 yet. So you said for example that N320 with a 147gr flattens primers for you, but do you still use that load anyway? And by that I'm saying I don't know much about what to be concerned about with over-pressure, should I immediately stop using a load if I see the slightest signs, etc.?

I'm pretty sure I have the sizing die and FCD all the way down. After I loaded a few rounds I noticed that there was the tiniest bit of gap, due to the slight vertical play in the turret, so I screwed them in further, but I'll triple check before loading more.

[tcazes]

I paid 40 shipped for my rcbs from amazon so I didn't think I was in high dollar territory yet.

As far as case gauge goes maybe the local stores to me had flukes but egw specifically would pass rounds that failed in mY dillon. I tried the two brands along with rcbs when diagnosing a reloading issue back when I first started reloading so I respectfully disagree.

[Sarge]

Sounds like you are right about that 1279 fps flyer since you measured every charge. Probably an odd chrono reading. Also, seems like your dies are set OK. Often times a quarter of a turn on any given die makes huge differences so maybe just keep tweaking and testing. The bullet ogive etc plays not part in a case gauge since it purely measures the dimension of the case itself once loaded. My 9MAJOR loads are so long they hang out the end of a case gauge.

I urge you to use lube as it easily removes half the strain on the case and your arm. Really clean, dry brass can almost "roll" material towards the base without lube making the bottom of the case fatter. Try lube and see if it changes your results.

[biglou13]

Extreme spread

I wouldn't sweat the reults at this point.

Your sample size of 10 is a bit small... There are multiple variables...often bench rest shooters will throw out extreme high and extreme low. Under the assumption it was a error induced somewhere.

What was time between shots, Chrono error,Powder load, case volume.temperature.humidity,barometric pressure, neck tension, case variables, ransom vs. hand held, ( short list ) all can create variances in data. You are also new to reloading your ES / SD will come down with better more consistent technique alone.

If you really want better data results, and analyzing data look into some bench rest forums.

Recalculate es/sd without extreme high and low........

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in data. You'll want to look at data over larger sample size.

Personally speaking I've spent countless hours on data collection and analysis vs. shooting time. If I planned on shooting bullseye then maybe, big maybe spend more time collecting data. Then maybe at elite level of competition.

Once you get in the ball park on a load. I think it's more important to measure groups. From yiour shooting position. At a distant that is within you skill competition level. Then look at it as what load is most accurate for me. Minute of A zone accuracy.

Edited August 4, 2015 by biglou13

[Southpaw]

Thanks for the additional replies. I'll try playing with the dies, try a bit less crimp and play with the bell. And I'll try some other bullets to see if I still get case gauge failures with a different profile, in which case I'll know I definitely messed something up!

I'll pick up some case lube, is there a certain kind y'all recommend? Do I need to be careful not to get any near the primer pocket?

I have seen other threads where everyone was saying don't get too worked up with trying to get a super low std deviation, but I'm not sure at what point you'd say that it is too high and needs to be addressed...

[Sarge]

I used one shot lube for 3-4 years and thought it was wonderful until I tried Dillon lube. Wow! Either will be much better than dry but the Dillon stuff is excellent!

I would certainly want my SD IN the mid teens at most while striving for even lower. Probably not needed but a good low SD says a lot about your reloading QC.

[Southpaw]

Thanks! I'll swing by Dillon and pick some up.

So assuming dies are set up correctly, which I will triple check, what are the steps you'd likely take if you tried a new load and got that large SD? I will try a lighter crimp and shorter OAL, but not sure what other adjustment I even have available to make.

I'll also try some other bullets I have and try N320.

[Sarge]

Thanks! I'll swing by Dillon and pick some up.

So assuming dies are set up correctly, which I will triple check, what are the steps you'd likely take if you tried a new load and got that large SD? I will try a lighter crimp and shorter OAL, but not sure what other adjustment I even have available to make.

I'll also try some other bullets I have and try N320.

Believe it or not the lube will make each pull of the handle more consistent so you will get much more precise bullet seat every time. Also,sorting by headstamp will make a huge improvement in consistency. It's not for everybody but it will give you something to try in order to weed out other possibilities. Other than that just make sure you pull the handle the same each and every time.

[Southpaw]

Thanks again Sarge. I was going slow, stopping between each stage, checking powder weights, etc. so that could have been an issue with the consistent pulls as you said.

I was using all once fired Federal brass to try to eliminate that variable, that's why I was even more surprised by the large SD.

[Sarge]

Thanks again Sarge. I was going slow, stopping between each stage, checking powder weights, etc. so that could have been an issue with the consistent pulls as you said.

I was using all once fired Federal brass to try to eliminate that variable, that's why I was even more surprised by the large SD.

Smooth out your reloading process by just pulling the handle and operating the press freely. Try some lube. Then chrono again and see what you get. Take spare batteries with you for the chrono and change them after a few strings. Part of the SD could just be inconsistent readings as well.

Also, try running more rounds over the chrono each string. Maybe something like 50 rounds. Then run the numbers.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Sarge

[Southpaw]

Thanks. I will try to get back to the range this weekend for some more chronoing. Will also test accuracy, didn't have a chance to do that yet.