CCW Training

[Flyin40]

Well finally finished my CCW training and had a great time. The instructor proved to be above average. In Ohio we are required 10hrs of class room work, going over the law, legal carry methods and a attorney came in and spoke for awhile also. We had 2 hrs of range time.

We had 16 men and 2 women in the class. Some you could tell had very little range time. We only shot a total of 20 rounds using the sights. Everything else was point shooting with his technique. He taught both arms locked, head down, knees bent leaning forward. This technique was outstanding, he has taught is for over 25yrs to local, state and Federal Law enforcement I believe he said in 30 states. The only public training he does is the CCW because he was frustrated with how poorly other Ohio courses was being conducted.

He stressed arms locked and make the shoulders take the recoil. He didn't want the gun lifting at all. It worked, no doubt about it.

During our range time quick doubles, triples, strong hand, kneeling, low light and no light shooting all from a low ready. For the low light/no light all lights were shut off on the range. You only had the light coming in from the window in the classroom. Everything was conducted in a safe manner. If a gun would jam he would be yelling at you to place stress on you to get it cleared and finish shooting.

Our final test was 2 civilians which he stated was 4 inches apart(more like 6inches)

with a threat in between them. The test was at 15 ft and you had to empty your gun into the target without hitting any civilians. Everyone passed without a problem, Nobody hit the civilians.

It was a great course and even learned some things that could cross over into competive shooting. The technique is geared towards 20ft and closer encounters. Its based on what a cop actually does during a shooting. He stated 97% showed the weaver, push pull method, using sights was never used. Even with highly trained individuals. This was based off of video of actual shootings caught on camera. Based on that the technique is great. After some thought I can use some things but other things will have you running around a USPSA course stiff and tense which is not going to work.

This is for Flex, this guy promoted Glock 100%. He called 1911 Cocked and Killed. Meaning your going to get shot. He stated under stress you will forget

to take the safety off in a instant life threatening attack. He used the example of the cop pulling the trigger in a shoot out but the gun wouldn't go off. Finally he remembered to take the safety off. This was on one Police scariest videos or something like that. I still haven't decided what gun to use.

I'm considering a glock but they are just so darn ugly. Then again pretty is not guaranteed to save your life.

Flyin40

[ChuckS]

--- snip ---  He called 1911 Cocked and Killed.  Meaning your going to get shot.  He stated under stress you will forget

to take the safety off in a instant life threatening attack. 

--- snip ---

That sort of makes you wonder how all those F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 pilots make it through combat without forgetting the master arm switch?

[Flyin40]

He did say that military was not included because of the intensity of training. He stated the military are specifically trained to fire under stress where most other training doesn't throw the stress equation in there. He was talking more about local cops or indiviuals that were trained to shoot groups(bullseye shooting).

Flyin40

[ChuckS]

Understood! It just seemed a bit absolute in the original post. No offense meant.

[Gun Geek]

This is for Flex, this guy promoted Glock 100%. He called 1911 Cocked and Killed. Meaning your going to get shot. He stated under stress you will forget

to take the safety off in a instant life threatening attack. He used the example of the cop pulling the trigger in a shoot out but the gun wouldn't go off. Finally he remembered to take the safety off. This was on one Police scariest videos or something like that. I still haven't decided what gun to use.

He did say that military was not included because of the intensity of training. He stated the military are specifically trained to fire under stress where most other training doesn't throw the stress equation in there. He was talking more about local cops or indiviuals that were trained to shoot groups(bullseye shooting).

I think I started a little controversy with a similar statement on this board. I'll bet 75% to 90% of the guys doing this kind of training would echo this very sentiment. USPSA and IDPA competition can help, but the skills are perishable.

Glad you liked the training.

Go for a Glock; They can't get any uglier by scuffing them up, they're cheap (sort of), and they go bang when needed if you take just a little bit of care.

[AikiDale]

He called 1911 Cocked and Killed. Meaning your going to get shot. He stated under stress you will forget

to take the safety off in a instant life threatening attack. He used the example of the cop pulling the trigger in a shoot out but the gun wouldn't go off. Finally he remembered to take the safety off. This was on one Police scariest videos or something like that. I still haven't decided what gun to use.

I'm considering a glock but they are just so darn ugly. Then again pretty is not guaranteed to save your life.

Flyin40

I am sure the fellow with whom you trained believes what he is selling. I don't buy it. The thumb safety just comes off so naturally when one grips the 1911. I took a couple of courses several years ago from folks who have been training with 1911s for decades and under the stress of the class I was scolded several times for taking the safety off too early in the draw stroke. Neither do I seem to have any trouble taking off the safety when the buzzer goes off. It is not a matter of remembering (or forgetting) to take it off. It just seems to happen as a natural phenomena.

1911 style pistols are well designed for their tasks. Glocks are well designed for the same task. So are revolvers for that matter. I would suggest you play with several and pick the one that feels best to you and pay no attention to the religious convictions of the evangelists.

[Flyin40]

Understood! It just seemed a bit absolute in the original post. No offense meant.

Chuck, no offense taken. There were things that pertained to self defense shooting and others things that could cross over. Like anything else you take what you feel can help you best and use those components. Theres also quite a few self defense schools that promote high stress level shooting. This instructor in one of the advanced classes he teaches makes the students run 20 small laps around the classroom then go to the range and shoot. This is geared toward law enforcement chasing a subject.

As for the Glock, I used to own one in the early 90's and though the gun never failed the trigger was horrible to pull. I have heard that the trigger on the new ones are alot better, any truth to this. I'm not talkin a light trigger for comp but a medium trigger for carry.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

You can say that you will always take the safety off when the buzzer goes off because your expecting it. How does a buzzer relate to you hearing something at 20ft turning around and seeing someone running at you with a baseball bat. Stress can do funny things to you. How about this one, a trained police officer on caught on video tried to pull the gun from the holster 5 times until he finally realized that he didn't unsnap it. That was on TV, real life video. You can say how you will react to stress but we all know otherwise.

Why do Police officers not give a statement after a shooting?? Name badge number and thats it. It because of the stress.

This guy is trying to keep people alive. He promotes Glock for one reason, its simple and reliable. There is no gun store, no ammo to buy, nothing. Only training. I take that back, he actually sold Pepper spray, those that the general public can't get, only sold to law enforcement at cost. He didn't make a dime. He had the spray in the bag he carried it in from the store.

I wasn't even considering a Glock because of the experience I had with them. Horrible trigger pull, I just couldn't get used to that trigger. I'm a huge 1911 fan and its killin me to even think of getting a Glock but I have to be honest with myself. How many 1911 have I seen jam out of the box, lots and lots.

If you have been through high level training good for you. Those in the classes he teaches have not been and most likely never will. Those with enough practice and training can do fine with the 1911.

He just makes you look past your ego and makes look at the simple truth.

Flyin40

[EricW]

Flyin40,

I'm sorry to say this, but I vehemently disagree with every single premise taught in that class that you listed. There is hardly a grain of truth in any of what that instructor presented, if I am understanding correctly. The shooting technique your instructor presented is totally self-destructive, and you would be correct to abandon it and never practice it again. The "vulture" is simply a gawd-awful technique.

People have only been using the 1911 and BHP in combat for nearly 100 freaking years, and forgetting to hit the safety is a virtually an unregistered complaint. I know why cops are not disengaging the safety on the 1911, but I'm not going to go into it here. It's a lousy technique that doesn't need to be given any more free press.

All the crap about how you'll be so freaked out you won't remember to do any thing properly when the time comes is also complete and total horseshit.

Sorry for the harsh words, but if I were you, I'd forget everything you learned. Every time I think it would be kind of interesting to go to a "Tactical" skool, I hear a litany of crap like this and spend my money on bird hunting instead - which I'm positive is better preparing me for "life on the mean streets" than a class with most any of the mental asylum escapees giving tactical training these days.

/Rant Off

[Flexmoney]

A qucik reminder on the reason this forum is here.

From the Forum Rules:

Intent

This Forum is for firearm, technique, and conceptual discussions applicable to training and competition. (And various unrelated topics.) ;-)

While the occasional defensive shooting post is not prohibited, in general, defensive shooting discussions or debates are discouraged.

Lets all try to keep an open mind...

[Rob Boudrie]

There are a two phrases which persons teaching firearms courses find very hard to utter:

"This is just my opinion. Other equally qualified people have a different opinion from me on this issue."

"I don't know the answer to that question"

[kimel]

That's 2 Alpha Rob!

[Flyin40]

First let me say I probably didn't explain the technque fully which was my fault. I started this thread because of the thread on David Sevingy technique that was already being looked at. The Instructors technique so closely resembles the top ipsc shooters it was scary. It only had 2 differences, arms locked and that was for the purpose of point shooting at close proximity. and the weakhand grip. He wanted it alittle further around on the strong hand and this too was to promote the locked arms. I didn't like the arms locked at all and won't use them.

As far as the technique being horse#$#^ Look at the following pages of front sight and there is the technque except for arms locked which I didnt' agree with anyway JJ Racaza really shows the technique on page 48 in the new issue of Front Sight.

Page 5 USPSA poster

Page 13 Jerry Barnhart he really has his head down

Page 48 JJ this is the technique except for the bent arms

Page 63 David Sevigny

I said in my first post theres things that crossover in comp shooting. Thumbs both forward facing target but not pushing on frame, front of trigger guard is not for the finger, weak hand should be the strongest grip. Body square to the target. All things thats promoted by the top shooters.

Like anything else you take what you feel you can use and use that.

As for the 1911 thats an individual choice and we'll leave that alone.

Little bit of thread drift, but

Eric W,

Any idea when your going to have the STI grip tape ready. I contourned my grip but still would be intersted in giving it a try.

Flyin40

[EricW]

Flyin40,

I'm hoping to run the grips this week.

I still am going to caution you. I was taught to shoot by one of these commando twits. It was the absolute, worst thing that ever happened to me. I would be very careful about what technique you adopt right now. I can assure you of a few things:

- Virtually nobody shoots totally locked out. Even if if it *looks* like they're locked out, if you asked the shooter, they would probably tell you that they are not.

- Lisa Munson, p. 5, is not in a "combat crounch". Her head is forward, not in the "vulture." Lisa is not locked out.

- Jerry is Jerry.

- JJ is absolutely not in a combat crouch. He is forward, not down. His shoulders are not tense. His elbows are nowhere near being locked out. He is not point shooting either.

- David Sevigny is leaning forward. He is not in the vulture. His arms are not locked out. His shoulders are fairly relaxed.

The pictures you are looking at have the shooting postion modified by movement. If you want to see a pretty classic static shooting stance, take a look at the July/Aug 2004 issue of FS on p. 8. Junior, Erin Grubbe comes pretty close. Her head is erect, her elbows are not locked out, her shoulders are not tense. She will probably lean forward with a little more aggressive stance as time goes on, but she is off to a very solid start. Her stance will allow her a very speedy (and accurate) draw to the first target because the only thing she is moving is her gun and arms.

- Matt Burkett shows both ways. He has one DVD picture of himself head down, one heads up. If I were a betting man, I'd put money on him teaching heads up in his classes.

- Doug Koenig has the "anti-crouch" position in his advertising for Sierra.

- Look at the top of the page. Brian (and Rob) invented the modern action shooting stance. See any vulture action going on up there? And I'll bet you never will.

I do think that people's heads move down naturally during more aggresive courses of fire. There's nothing wrong with that. One is simply modifying the position as dicated by the course of fire. HOWEVER, it's a TERRIBLE way to come out of the blocks. Why? Because it's SLOOOOOWWW. Every deliberate movement you take, every additional amount of muscle stress you induce once that timer sounds is going to dramatically slow your times. Can you get away with a 1.75 draw in USPSA? Sure. For a while. Do it in a steel match and you're going to have your ass handed to you.

Do I practice what I preach? No. Has USPSA threated to revoke my E card for my (lack of) shooting ability? You betcha. The two things virutally every M and GM comment on when I shoot are (1) my crappy head position and (2) scooping on the draw.

As much as I hate it, I still revert to the combat crouch. You have the choice not to.

[Flyin40]

The technique he taught was head down meaning not standing fully erect. I never said or meant the vulture type style your talking about. He stated you bring the gun to your head not bring your head to the gun but when you shoot you face the target and lean forward alittle and that will bring your gun lower which brings your gun lower.

He talked a little about the draw. We didn't use holsters. He promoted gun at your chest thrust it forward, basically like whats being said about uspsa draws, no sweeping the gun up.

It kinda hard to describe it fully thats why I pointed out the pictures. This was what the guy looked like in his stances.

He also stated that the locked elbows were for the purpose of point shooting not target shooting. I never like the locked elbows anyway.

I'm with you about that combat stance, its slow, if elbows are locked your tense and it will slow you down. I could imagine how sore you would be after a match of running around with arms locked, you would have to have a "Match Massage Palor" LOL

Let me know when the grips are ready.

Flyin40

[BSeevers]

Flyin 40

Where in OH are you? Invite your instructor to a USPSA match and let's compare scores Not being cocky just interested in what is fast and accurate.

I believe that there are proper shooting fundamentals to learn and in a true self defense setting "improved" styles are not as important as getting fast and accurate shots and having a proper mindset to win the fight. No drawing?? Kind of defeats things since most of the time in a CCW encounter you must draw.

PS 1911's rule. I carry one when I can but also carry DAO and gulp even a Glock

[Jake Di Vita]

Dudeski,

I'm real good friends with both JJ and Sevigny and can tell you for certain they don't use anywhere close to the technique you described.

I really don't see the advantage to point shooting......it takes no longer to see your sights and call the shot.

If someone forgets to click the safety off on their 1911 that is their own fault because of lack of practice.

Any chance you can PM me with this guy's name?

[EricW]

F40,

BTW, I know it seems like I'm railing on you and your instructor, but don't think I'm beating on you out of meanness. Please go shoot with Bill and Co. for a weekend. They'll lead you to the light.

I really fear that with start His Majesty gave you, that you've been set up for a couple years of flailing and frustration - after which you will have to deconstruct and start from scratch.

I've got $5, that says Bill doesn't do The Vulture out of the blocks either...

Good Role Models to Emulate:

Doug Koenig (pic stolen from Sierra):

J-Go (stolen from JulieGoloski.com)

Notice how even when Julie's on the move, she maintains a nice, erect freestyle platform.

Another good role model is Mike Voigt. He has the nicest freestyle platform you've ever seen. I've only seen him shoot on teevee, but it's really a learning experience every time I do.

Hopefully Chriss Grubbe (or whoever took that one in FS) will see this and post that picture of Erin. It's really a classic.

[sfinney]

He talked a little about the draw.  We didn't use holsters.

Oh, thats rich. A CCW class where they didn't practically teach even the rudimentary techniques for drawing from concealment?

No holsters?

Nevermind students forgetting about flicking their thumb safety off, how about forgetting to draw? Or where their gun is?

[Flexmoney]

I shot with Flyin40 a few weeks ago (6 stages at Rayner's). His draw is as fast as anybody's here. More than once I though, "there is no way he is going to have both hits on that draw target". They were there.

You guys might want to steer him toward the point shooting and such...he will likely be good competition before long.

[Ron Ankeny]

Hmmm, back in my LEO days I carried a 1911. I can tell you for a fact, the safety came off. Enough said.

[Flyin40]

Jake do you mind expanding on your reply. Whats different about the technque.

Heres what I posted

"I said in my first post theres things that crossover in comp shooting. Thumbs both forward facing target but not pushing on frame, front of trigger guard is not for the finger, weak hand should be the strongest grip. Body square to the target. All things thats promoted by the top shooters. "

I'm the type of person who will try to learn something from everyone. This is not to disprove you but just to learn more. I have watched tapes and watched the pros, there doing these things.

Just like the thumb not pushing on the frame, theres actually a thread that Benos descibes this very technique. I look at all different techniques and take what I feel will work for me. Everyone has different things that work for them but will never work for others.

Bent knees, leaning forward brings the head down naturally, you dont' even have to try to. It just happens. No finger on the trigger guard, I believe this also came from Benos. You grips stronger with you weak hand index finger around your strong hand. Feet apart facing the targets, no weaver stance for me.

Both thumbs facing the target, I see alot of people doing that.

These are some basic things. This guy taught these things but he also taught things I disagreed with.

During his course I tried his technique and quiclkly found I didn't like it but I still tried it. Most times something new feels wrong anyway. So I worked on it most of the class. I gave it a try. It worked for point shooting. But again I'm not point shooting USPSA targets.

Heres what happened in the end when it was my turn to take my test. You get tapped on the back when your to begin firing. From a low ready I unloaded 10rds in probably 3 secs, I was going slow to make sure I didn't hit civilians and fail. I had only 4-6 inches to shoot through. He said why didn't you shoot like that the whole class. My return was because I shot your technique and that was my technque and how I'm going to keep shooting.

I learned some things from him to help me but I'm still using the same form.

Some things it showed me was not to push on the frame with your thumb, you push your gun sideways without realizing it.

He showed me how to really use your weak hand to stregthen the overall grip.

Also showed how your body position, knees bent leaning forward helps you overall balance during shooting. I'm not talking crouching either. Slighty bent, slighty forward.

Always emphasized bring the gun to your head and not your head to the gun.

These were all things I knew but showed me that I needed to work on these more than I have.

Anyone feel free to break down the shooting stance, I'm more than willing to learn something new.

Flyin40

[Flyin40]

Also I'll clarify again that this was a qualification and state mandated training course. It was not a self defense course. In Ohio you are required to have 10hrs of class room and 2 hrs of range time. Holster training is not part of the requirements. That is more a self defense class where you would learn that and involve alot more range time.

Lets keep this thread toward technique or even start another thread on proper shooting form, from the feet up to the hands.

Theres alot of experienced shooters on here to learn from. I want the info because I plan on being right on Flex's and SAndersons heels. I'm at the same club as both of them. I think they are safe for awhile though. I can't believe I quit shooting for so long. Good to get back into it.

Flyin40

[Ron Ankeny]

Flying40:

Welcome to the world of discussing "self defense shooitng" with a bunch of IPSC shooters.

I spend a lot of time in both worlds because I work some with a couple of law enforcement agencies and I have an interest in defensive shooting that goes way back to my days in law enforcement.

I am really glad you had a positive experience in your class. It's funny, you posted about your positive experience only one day after I posted about how my shooting had turned to crap from engraining bad habits while drinking from the pointshooting, high speed low drag wannabe operator trough, lol.

FWIW, your instructor gave some information that is nothing but his opinion and he also gave you some information that is just plain false. I don't want to rain on your parade, but when I read your post I just kind of muttered to myself, "Oh no, here we go again."

I find the instructor's comments about "locked and killed" to be total nonsense. Sure, a platform without controls is great for a beginner, and a 1911 isn't necessarily for everyone, but it is still one of the finest self defense/combat platforms around. Bashing a 1911 is an uphill battle. His position on a 1911, in combination with the remarks about the Weaver stance, put the guy's credibility in the toilet.

Am I to understand the instructor said videos of actual shootings show cops default to a Weaver type stance? We must have a huge failure to communicate on that issue because the truth is just the opposite. Actual films of shootings show the Weaver stance falls to pieces under pressure and that's why you don't see any major defensive school preaching hard on the exclusive use of a Weaver anymore. In the majority of defensive shootings, the person will default to a stance very similar to the modified or modern iso. stance in use by the majority of IPSC shooters today. Most of our state LEO agencies use the services of Ron Avery who teaches law officers what he calls the natural action stance. You guessed it, the stance, grip, balance, etc. is the same thing (very nearly) that Barnhart, Jarret, Burkett, etc, teach.

Speaking of Ron Avery, one of the guys in a competition class I was enrolled in asked Avery how well a person needed to be able to shoot to be above average in pistolcraft skills for street survival. Without hesitation Avery replied, "A B class IPSC shooter has all the shooting skills he will ever need to survive an armed encounter." He was talking about pure shooting skills and gunhandling ability. FWIW, when you get that Master card (or even before) you will understand what Avery meant. In my opinion, if you learn to shoot technically correct, from a bunch of square range gurus (IPSC shooters) in the end you will have mastered pistolcraft skills that rival the skills of the majority of mall ninjas. As for pointshooting at spitting distance, that is a natural byproduct of developing kinesthetic awareness of the relationship of your body parts to the bore of the pistol in relation to the target. Does it work? Sure. Can guys like Flex and Jake and Steve shoot just as fast with a lot of visual inputs? You betcha.

I try to keep an open mind and I never want to stop learning. But there comes a time when folks will need to decide for themselves what works. I guess that's where the differences of opinion come into play.

[John Dunn]

I think the instructor was saying that the Weaver was not used in actual gunfights.

He stated 97% showed the weaver, push pull method, using sights was never used.

I think "cocked and killed" is wrong, and note that most military weapons have a safety.