Ty Hamby Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 21.4 allows us to apply grip tape in approved areas of the frame defined in E4. 22.2 says we cant add or remove material to alter the factory profile. At what point would the addition of tape change the profile. Is tape exempt from altering the profile. If the factory profile grips are installed and the grip is wrapped in tape does tape change the profile? If enough tape is used to change the profile is it still just grip tape on factory profile grip panels? For example: Factory CZ SP01 rubber grip panels with 3 rolls of baseball bat grip tape applied to make for an jumbo size grip surface over factory profile grip panels. Legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 My thought on the add or remove material is such as under cutting the trigger guard, removing finger grooves, etc. As for adding layers of tape, IMO, and it is only my opinion, as long as the tape was not applied in an area that it was illegal to be applied in, I would think it would be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) good luck trying to figure out what is really "legal" & "illegal" ... what you are describing to do can easily be defined as altering the gun profile ..... the rule is so poorly worded that you are basically at the mercy of the RM at the match you go to ..... I've asked a million times and no one can tell me exactly which "factory" profile I am suppoused to follow for a CZ Shadow since there are about 1/2 doz companies that make grips for the CZ & they all 'change' the 'factory' profile. Factory profile to me means only the grips that come with the gun from the factory .... luckily I ain't no RO/RM ..... Maybe if 'factory profile' was defined to be the gun without removable grips installed we would have a rule that is consistent & actually reinforceable .... So are one manufacturer's grips ok to use and not another? And if all current after-market CZ grips are production legal what makes them so special? Why can't I make my own grips from my own gheutto gunship shop & use them so long as they don't violate other rules like adding a make-shift magwell? Edited July 17, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 21.4 allows us to apply grip tape in approved areas of the frame defined in E4. 22.2 says we cant add or remove material to alter the factory profile. At what point would the addition of tape change the profile. Is tape exempt from altering the profile. If the factory profile grips are installed and the grip is wrapped in tape does tape change the profile? If enough tape is used to change the profile is it still just grip tape on factory profile grip panels? For example: Factory CZ SP01 rubber grip panels with 3 rolls of baseball bat grip tape applied to make for an jumbo size grip surface over factory profile grip panels. Legal? I'd say Legal......... ....in Open..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cas Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Only use 2 rolls, 3 rolls and it won't fit in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 21.4 allows us to apply grip tape in approved areas of the frame defined in E4. 22.2 says we cant add or remove material to alter the factory profile. At what point would the addition of tape change the profile. Is tape exempt from altering the profile. If the factory profile grips are installed and the grip is wrapped in tape does tape change the profile? If enough tape is used to change the profile is it still just grip tape on factory profile grip panels? For example: Factory CZ SP01 rubber grip panels with 3 rolls of baseball bat grip tape applied to make for an jumbo size grip surface over factory profile grip panels. Legal? I'd say Legal......... ....in Open..... +1 Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 ok, so now my company will manufacture and sell CZ grips with a couple of strips of baseball bat grip tape applied to them in all sorts of pretty colors. Legal now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Maybe -- please supply me with free samples on a free gun, and I'll give you my opinion after I evaluate it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 All kidding aside, the RM at any given match is the final arbiter of whether you get to continue in Production, or need to play in Open -- so ask yourself whether the modification is really worth the risk.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Looks like a duck........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 but that's my whole point .... having a rule which says " ......does not alter the factory profile ...." without defining exactly what "factory profile" means and also allowing any pretty-looking, slickly manufactured grips .... which clearly change the gun profile .....is not helpful. A clear definition of what is meant by 'Factory profile" would solve this issue in a heartbeat. This was the same problem we were having with where & how you measure distance to meet the 2" away from your belt rule". The rules were clarified and now there is no more interpretation. Because the result of a "misinterpretation" will have such devastating effects on the shooter (move from Production to Open) this rule shouldn't have any wiggle room. A rule where a misunderstanding from the RO results is a procedural sucks but won't ruin your match .... moving to Open however will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) BTW, factory profile to me means the way the gun comes from the factory. Which means those nice black rubber grips. So either say that's the factory profile and all other grips are not legal in Production or open the flood gates and let me do anything I want to the grips that doesn't violate some other Production rule like adding a magwell. Otherwise we're heading into "Animal Farm" (George Orwell, 1945) territory ...... "All pigs are created equal ... but some pigs are more equal than others." Ignore this at your peril .... Edited July 18, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 but that's my whole point .... having a rule which says " ......does not alter the factory profile ...." without defining exactly what "factory profile" means and also allowing any pretty-looking, slickly manufactured grips .... which clearly change the gun profile .....is not helpful. A clear definition of what is meant by 'Factory profile" would solve this issue in a heartbeat. This was the same problem we were having with where & how you measure distance to meet the 2" away from your belt rule". The rules were clarified and now there is no more interpretation. Because the result of a "misinterpretation" will have such devastating effects on the shooter (move from Production to Open) this rule shouldn't have any wiggle room. A rule where a misunderstanding from the RO results is a procedural sucks but won't ruin your match .... moving to Open however will. Actually there are three easy ways to avoid this....... Don't come to anyone's attention. I can't remember a match where anyone asked to inspect my gun..... Don't go crazy with modifications -- again ties into the first point..... Last but not least, if you do want to use some crazy out of the ordinary grips -- check with the RM prior to first shot and have a backup plan..... Production is different from other divisions: Modifications are not permitted unless specifically allowed. If you have to ask -- you're riding on the edge. Want to modify to your heart's content -- pick one of the other five divisions..... As far as Open being devastating -- you're really equating it with serious health crises, job loss in your 50s, divorce, death of a spouse? Hyperbole -- or different understanding of "devastating?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 If I get bumped to open, the embarrassment will cause my wife to leave me, my boss to fire me, my house to catch fire and my dog to die (plus all those other things that happen in blues songs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Putting my RM hat on for a minute. I've seen several different Cz grips, some of which are very cool looking. None of those grips would cause me to start thinking about rules. I think most folks think of grip tape as a single sheet of tape applied to increase friction. If you start wrapping multiple layers of grip tape on your grip then we will need to talk. I always think a word to the wise is sufficient. Edited July 18, 2015 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 but that's my whole point .... having a rule which says " ......does not alter the factory profile ...." without defining exactly what "factory profile" means and also allowing any pretty-looking, slickly manufactured grips .... which clearly change the gun profile .....is not helpful. A clear definition of what is meant by 'Factory profile" would solve this issue in a heartbeat. This was the same problem we were having with where & how you measure distance to meet the 2" away from your belt rule". The rules were clarified and now there is no more interpretation. Because the result of a "misinterpretation" will have such devastating effects on the shooter (move from Production to Open) this rule shouldn't have any wiggle room. A rule where a misunderstanding from the RO results is a procedural sucks but won't ruin your match .... moving to Open however will. Actually there are three easy ways to avoid this....... Don't come to anyone's attention. I can't remember a match where anyone asked to inspect my gun..... Don't go crazy with modifications -- again ties into the first point..... Last but not least, if you do want to use some crazy out of the ordinary grips -- check with the RM prior to first shot and have a backup plan..... Production is different from other divisions: Modifications are not permitted unless specifically allowed. If you have to ask -- you're riding on the edge. Want to modify to your heart's content -- pick one of the other five divisions..... As far as Open being devastating -- you're really equating it with serious health crises, job loss in your 50s, divorce, death of a spouse? Hyperbole -- or different understanding of "devastating?" I don't disagree with anything you've suggested but why not simply clarify the definition of "factory profile" and eliminate 99% of the issue? Particularly when I can't guarantee the RM at the match I go to will be as reasonable as you. I know we can't go around updating and changing every rule because someone thinks is not obvious. However, the use of the words 'factory profile' when you allow guns where you can swap out external grips and quite easily change the profile of the gun, is the perfect place for a simple clarification. I know the rules say that unless a mod is specifically authorized, it is prohibited so is there a rule which states that changing out the grips is legal to do? If not, then doesn't this rule apply, making it illegal to swap out the grips on a CZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 ...Factory profile to me means only the grips that come with the gun from the factory ... Why? Profile just means an outline, not exact duplicate. If they meant exact, I think they would have said that. Don't get too hung up on this, the rules say you can put grip tape on it, putting grip tape on is fine but you don't need multiple layers to achieve what grip tape is for, right? It says you can replace the grip panels, then after market grips are fine. Anything else that may change the profile or outline of the firearm would not be allowed at that point, right? It just looks like they trying to give some latitude so you have some options but trying to limit that so there is no competitive advantage. Like it was stated before, if you have to ask or inquire too much, you are already on shaky ground. Sent from the range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 ok, so I can replace the grips panels, that's fine. But what if i want to make my own & not buy some after-market grips? I want to take some grips, slap on a bunch of JB weld, let it harden a bit, then grab the gun so that the grips mold exactly to my hand. Let it harden, sand & then add SiCa with epoxy so they are nice and rough. Good to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Better suggestion. Work within the rules. If your sentence starts with "What if I ......." most likely you should rethink the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I think you hit a key word, "bunch." I'm sure if you added just enough to add blasting media to add grip but no other advantage, I can't see where any good RM would rule against that. You can kind of compare that to the Hogue wrap-around grips with the finger grooves. DNROI has stated this changes the profile so would not be legal. Sent from the range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 but that's my whole point .... having a rule which says " ......does not alter the factory profile ...." without defining exactly what "factory profile" means and also allowing any pretty-looking, slickly manufactured grips .... which clearly change the gun profile .....is not helpful. A clear definition of what is meant by 'Factory profile" would solve this issue in a heartbeat. This was the same problem we were having with where & how you measure distance to meet the 2" away from your belt rule". The rules were clarified and now there is no more interpretation. Because the result of a "misinterpretation" will have such devastating effects on the shooter (move from Production to Open) this rule shouldn't have any wiggle room. A rule where a misunderstanding from the RO results is a procedural sucks but won't ruin your match .... moving to Open however will. Actually there are three easy ways to avoid this.......Don't come to anyone's attention. I can't remember a match where anyone asked to inspect my gun..... Don't go crazy with modifications -- again ties into the first point..... Last but not least, if you do want to use some crazy out of the ordinary grips -- check with the RM prior to first shot and have a backup plan..... Production is different from other divisions: Modifications are not permitted unless specifically allowed. If you have to ask -- you're riding on the edge. Want to modify to your heart's content -- pick one of the other five divisions..... As far as Open being devastating -- you're really equating it with serious health crises, job loss in your 50s, divorce, death of a spouse? Hyperbole -- or different understanding of "devastating?" I don't disagree with anything you've suggested but why not simply clarify the definition of "factory profile" and eliminate 99% of the issue? Particularly when I can't guarantee the RM at the match I go to will be as reasonable as you. I know we can't go around updating and changing every rule because someone thinks is not obvious. However, the use of the words 'factory profile' when you allow guns where you can swap out external grips and quite easily change the profile of the gun, is the perfect place for a simple clarification. I know the rules say that unless a mod is specifically authorized, it is prohibited so is there a rule which states that changing out the grips is legal to do? If not, then doesn't this rule apply, making it illegal to swap out the grips on a CZ? The bulk of RMs I've encountered -- both certified and acting as RM -- have been reasonable folks. However my last suggestion works even for the unreasonable ones -- you ask before the match starts and go to plan B if they rule against you..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 ok, so I can replace the grips panels, that's fine. But what if i want to make my own & not buy some after-market grips? I want to take some grips, slap on a bunch of JB weld, let it harden a bit, then grab the gun so that the grips mold exactly to my hand. Let it harden, sand & then add SiCa with epoxy so they are nice and rough. Good to go? If you want to make grip panels that are molded to your hand -- you might be on shaky ground. That smells of "custom grip work" versus replacement grip panels..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ty Hamby Posted July 20, 2015 Author Share Posted July 20, 2015 I don't want to change grip panels. I want to use factory grip panels. All I want to know is how much grip tape is allowed to be applied to factory grip panels in production? Some? A little? or a lot? My reading and re-reading is "Any". Since one wrap or a single layer of skate tape alters the grip profile, the rules are sounding like they are referencing the grip panel with emphasis on adding or removing beaver-tail and mag-well. I am discovering some are reading profile to refer to the grip surface after tape is applied. If that is the case then every G34 with skate tape could be ruled illegal using that logic. Many wraps used today reduce fingertip recesses, increase circumference, altering profile, yet these same wraps still compete in majors every weekend. I do believe profile refers to the original grip panel/grip surface and not the finished grip after tape is applied. Glue and grit are also allowed to be added and also change the profile. Profile has to refer to the grip panels and not the final gripping surface. The individual that said all decisions are ruled final by the RM said it best and my RM said wrap away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I don't want to change grip panels. I want to use factory grip panels. All I want to know is how much grip tape is allowed to be applied to factory grip panels in production? Some? A little? or a lot? My reading and re-reading is "Any". Since one wrap or a single layer of skate tape alters the grip profile, the rules are sounding like they are referencing the grip panel with emphasis on adding or removing beaver-tail and mag-well. I am discovering some are reading profile to refer to the grip surface after tape is applied. If that is the case then every G34 with skate tape could be ruled illegal using that logic. Many wraps used today reduce fingertip recesses, increase circumference, altering profile, yet these same wraps still compete in majors every weekend. I do believe profile refers to the original grip panel/grip surface and not the finished grip after tape is applied. Glue and grit are also allowed to be added and also change the profile. Profile has to refer to the grip panels and not the final gripping surface. The individual that said all decisions are ruled final by the RM said it best and my RM said wrap away. You'll have a tougher time convincing me that multiple wraps are allowed, than that one wrap with necessary overlap is ok..... One wrap/application of precut grip tape like Tru-Grip that has some overlap = grip take addition = ok for my understanding of the rules..... Multiple wraps that appear to exist to build up the grip? Not so much..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric4069 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I don't want to change grip panels. I want to use factory grip panels. All I want to know is how much grip tape is allowed to be applied to factory grip panels in production? Some? A little? or a lot? My reading and re-reading is "Any". Since one wrap or a single layer of skate tape alters the grip profile, the rules are sounding like they are referencing the grip panel with emphasis on adding or removing beaver-tail and mag-well. I am discovering some are reading profile to refer to the grip surface after tape is applied. If that is the case then every G34 with skate tape could be ruled illegal using that logic. Many wraps used today reduce fingertip recesses, increase circumference, altering profile, yet these same wraps still compete in majors every weekend. I do believe profile refers to the original grip panel/grip surface and not the finished grip after tape is applied. Glue and grit are also allowed to be added and also change the profile. Profile has to refer to the grip panels and not the final gripping surface. The individual that said all decisions are ruled final by the RM said it best and my RM said wrap away. You'll have a tougher time convincing me that multiple wraps are allowed, than that one wrap with necessary overlap is ok..... One wrap/application of precut grip tape like Tru-Grip that has some overlap = grip take addition = ok for my understanding of the rules..... Multiple wraps that appear to exist to build up the grip? Not so much..... +1 the voice of reason Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now