Scoring your own targets

[Catfish]

My buddy Brad and I have been having a conversation about scoring your own targets, perhaps some of ya'll can lend some thoughts.

I'm a huge advocate of Lanny Bassham, as is Brad. I'm of the belief that after you shoot your perfect stage, just collect your goodies and walk back to your bag, put new bullets in the mags, and start taping, etc.

I don't think that it does me any good to go look at the targets after I shoot. In my mind, they're all A's anyway, I shot the stage perfectly, so what's the point of looking if the only thing it will do is give me an affirmation that I missed?

Brad (and please jump in here if I screwed the pooch and didn't 'splain your perspective right) thinks that you go look at the targets for your affirmation, and just mentally remove anything other than A's from your mindset.

Your thoughts?

[Ron Ankeny]

I have done both. Of course, the score card that gets messed up with inaccurate information will be the time you just walk back to your bag. By the time you catch the errors, the targets are taped and the on deck shooter is already in Box A.

[Catfish]

Ron - I thought about that, and that's when I would have a trusted friend score my targets for me and make sure I don't get hosed. That person would have to know not to come shaking his/her head on the way back in case of a problemo!

[BradC]

Yeah, you summed it up pretty good catfish =)

The reason I like to look at targets is because I love the look of 2 alphas. The more I see it, the better I visualize and it results in, well, seeing it more =)

Its an interesting mental challenge to wash out non-alphas, but it can be done. I still catch myself thinking/talking about things that are effective negatives. Back to Lanny for that, learn from it, make it a positive.

In a Major match, you'll pretty much have to look at your own targets to prevent any errors. While you and I trust each other to make a call, the SO/RO will want the shooter's involvement in the case of a miraculous double (the most heinous of non-alphas ) and the likes.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you shot the stage perfectly and have great points I think it's actually a benefit to look at the targets and see what you did....and what you can repeatadly do.

Drawing up on a memory is much more encouraging that imagining it....although both do work.

[Matthew_Mink]

Oh yeah, its always good to walk down the targets seeing the 2 A's. Thats a fantastic confidence builder. I never just walk off, cause you never know what you might learn about your vision by looking at the targets after you just shot them.

[XRe]

I objectively review my performance after each effort. Look at it for what it is. That means, I have to review each target. I then go back through the performance mentally, identifying the things I did really well, and the things I didn't do so well. I then replay the performance, editing the negative stuff with perfect performance while I play it back. I play that edited tape again, if I need to. Then, I let it go....

I do that even for "best effort" performances (I have never had a perfect performance - I'm not in the boat that believes in them, as I can always do *something* better). There's always something to learn.

Interestingly, this has some positive effects: 1) it reaffirms my positive self-talk, 2) it highlights the strengths of the game I brought that day, 3) it highlights what I should be focusing on in my pre-routine to take best advantage of my game that day, 4) it keeps me grounded and focused on the next step I need to take, 5) it allows me to squirrel away ideas for future practice sessions, 6) it allows me to bear down, if required, to regain match focus, and 7) it allows me to process all the post-performance thoughts and feelings in a structured fashion, and clear them out of my head.

Having a system works for me. I'm a "thinker" - giving myself an avenue for that behavior that leads consistently to positive mental results is key to keeping the "committee" from running rampant....

Anyhow

[Flexmoney]

I am an LB fan too. But, I will be scoring my own targets. They are what they are...history. I want to make sure the match official get it right though. (Sometimes they even try to give you points you didn't earn...Lanny doesn't suggest you take those. )

[j1b]

Yeah, this borders on the old thought process of only taping "non A's" on a practice target.

I only shoot 6 shots on any target before taping - and when I'm REALLY into it, I only shoot two shots before taping. It is the best way to understand the impact of what I saw versus what happened.

If you shot the perfect stage - all A's - then challenge yourself to call the shot in the A. If you dropped 3 points, challenge yourself to recall what you saw that got you those C's (or that one D)

To me, not scoring your targets in a match is missing one of the best opportunties to learn as well as confirm all the great things you did. In addition, hearing the RO say "two alpha" a dozen times has a little positive impact as well.

In the book "Blink" there is an idea that the mere suggestion of something would cause a reaction in the subconcious. In that example they put up some quiz where the term "old" popped up. They basically said the test takers walked out of the test slower and more slumped than they walked in - I may not have nailed that exactly but it's close. Point being reinforce the good, because it seems to gain momentum (just like the negative can).

JB

[Chriss Grube]

Wow, you guys sure put a whole lot of faith in the mental stuff. I'll stick to lining up the sights and shooting. KISS all this affirmation stuff sounds like to much work to me. Shoot it and if you did everything right the hit will be there if you didn't do it right all the positive think mumbo jumbo aint going to change it.

[Skywalker]

Maybe I misunderstood the question, but I have witnessed it happening too frequently to let this pass.

You better score your own targets, or have a close friend/squadmate do that, to ensure what the RO calls is what the scorekeeper writes down.

Last time it happened to me I was following the RO calling my hits, and was mentally taking note of how many As, Cs and Ds (easiest) I scored on a long course, and then when I got to sign the score sheet the totals were different from what I had in mind.

I was lucky that I was the first shooter of the squad, and the ROs had just stapled fresh targets on the sticks before my attempt, thus I was able to show the scorekeeper he misunderstood a call.

Never give anything for granted, we're humans, we can be wrong, and an additional check won't hurt anyone...

[eric nielsen]

Jack has great advice which is to tape your practice targets after no more than 6 shots in each, after 2 shots is better. I have a jpg of a nice reduced-size practice target which gives me fantastic feedback on my sight alignment & calling. Email if you want one.

As for a match, this isn't so much Mental Conditioning as the topic says but more just feedback on your shooting progress - I find that I'm more likely to be informed or even surprised if I look at each target at a local match shooting LIMITED. Much more likely to have called each shot exactly if I've shot with a OPEN gun, and I'll be less concerned with seeing every hit.

The Open gun shot-calling gets more sketchy as the target gets farther away and if you're shooting a big beach-ball red-dot, like a 10 or 12MOA. I find it more time-consuming to call a shot based on the imaginary center of a 12MOA which is why I went back to an 8MOA. If it's bright enough, 6MOA is likely even better.

I'm REALLY REALLY interested where every hit went just after switching from one division to another or even a different gun in the same division. Even to the point of finding my hit on a popper - if the steel is getting painted after each shooter. Easy to get complacent on big steel and just get the windage right and to heck with the elevation.

Same goes for having the course set up 11yd poppers right beside 20yd ipsc targets. The A-zone is harder to hit in that array, but complacency can lead you to spend LESS concern on the paper. It's kind of a trap.

My $.02

[XRe]

Wow, you guys sure put a whole lot of faith in the mental stuff. I'll stick to lining up the sights and shooting. KISS all this affirmation stuff sounds like to much work to me. Shoot it and if you did everything right the hit will be there if you didn't do it right all the positive think mumbo jumbo aint going to change it.

Chriss - what works for you works, but I think you'll find that most, if not all, of the top shooters have a mental routine of some sort.... It's not as complicated as it sounds - you build it up a little at a time, and it becomes second nature. Most of it is just a change in perspective and attitude. It's certainly not mumbo jumbo No, it won't change the results of the past - nothing can do that, silly boy It can (and *will*) change the results of the present, however......

The Open gun shot-calling gets more sketchy as the target gets farther away and if you're shooting a big beach-ball red-dot, like a 10 or 12MOA. I find it more time-consuming to call a shot based on the imaginary center of a 12MOA which is why I went back to an 8MOA. If it's bright enough, 6MOA is likely even better.

Set your gun up so that the bullet breaks the top edge of the dot at 50 yards or so. You'll stop having this issue of being unsure of where it hits within the dot at long range. Because of the way optics work, the bullet will enter the dot's "cone" at somwhere around 7-10 yards, and will be inside the dot out to 50. I shot a 6 MOA C-More on my Open gun, and I didn't have any problems calling hits at 50 yards... Several threads on this on the forum....

[tightloop]

Positive reinforcement NEVER hurts IMO....

[Chriss Grube]

Xre,

I guess playing sports all my life and occupational hazards have just got me to the point that I don't worry about all the little crap that seems to bother a lot of shooters. I can go to the line with WW3 going on behind me and not worry about anything. I started shooting with guys that would bust yours balls the whole way through a stage. I just learned to ignore it. I just think that a lot of people take something which is pretty simple and try to make it complicated. They turn themselves into headcases trying to over analyze everything. The first thing that goes wrong or something breaks their routine and they are screwed for the rest of the match. I shoot with a couple guys like that. It's funny to watch them meltdown if things don't go exactly perfect for them. I guess being Mil and now LE I got used to things changeing real fast and having to adjust. When I do the walk through and then break down the stage I visualize the shots but I check every target when being scored. I just don't let a D or something stupid like that ruin the rest of the match.

[XRe]

I just think that a lot of people take something which is pretty simple and try to make it complicated. They turn themselves into headcases trying to over analyze everything. The first thing that goes wrong or something breaks their routine and they are screwed for the rest of the match. ...I just don't let a D or something stupid like that ruin the rest of the match.

Chriss,

Everyone's wired a little bit differently - you're lucky enough to be conditioned to let the small things roll off w/o sticking. A lot of folks aren't that way - either due to their life experiences, training, whatever. A lot of them are just living in a negative head space, and could experience things more like you do if they would rectify that. That's kind of my point... it all boils down to reinforcing the positive, and letting the rest roll off your back like it never happened. Sounds like you're able to do that naturally, which is cool. The rest is just putting yourself in the right head space to perform without getting in your own way - that also doesn't come naturally to a lot of folks.

Those who get upset by the little things that invariably happen during a match just need to toughen their heads up All the mind game stuff is a sort of organized, disciplined way to do so - there are obviously other ways, such as your miltary / LE experience.

I'm curious what level you're competing at, and what your goals are?? I mean no disrespect or harm by asking - how you're pursuing the game will help me understand a little bit about where you're coming from, too...

Dave

[Catfish]

Great thoughts everyone. Thanks for the input!

Chris - it sounds to me like you're already running a program of your own - and if it's working for you, keep doing it!

What I am on the path to discover is just how far I can push my own ablity - and by that I mean mental. I think I've got a pretty good grasp on the fundamentals of *shooting*, that is, the physical act of pulling the trigger and hitting the target accurately and with some degree of speed.

Watching the top dogs shoot, I've come to think that it's not who pulls the trigger the best, reloads the fastest, or who can transition from box A to box B who wins.

It's the shooter with the ability to get through the match with no mental mistakes.

And that's where I want to be.

Again, thanks everyone for the discussion so far, very thought provoking and keep em comin'.

Derrick

[j1b]

Chriss,

I may not be explaining my position that well.

I am absolutely a believer in simplifying and breaking things down. Stages are simply distractions to the shooting. I don't have a mental routine that I go through that sets me up in "the zone" or anything like that.

I hate overthinking things.

I do believe there is much to be learned from results after the fact (after WWIII). Have you had a miss in a match? If so, walking targets after a stage may help you understand that. Have you shot a D? Walking through and seeing results helps me.

So many times I've walked through a stage and saw two shots on a target knowing that I'd looked one through because it was where I thought it should be but the second might not have been exactly where I thought it would be.

On top of that - RO's screw up like the rest of us.

It's just a simple thing that I believe benefits me.

JB

[Chriss Grube]

Xre,

Right now I'm A class in Open and B in Lim, L-10 and Prod. I don't take this sport real serious and haven't practiced in 3 years. I spent most of 02 and 03 out or recuping from old fart driver induced back surgery. Basically I'm shooting on natural ability at this point.

[Mike_Kerr]

Derrick wrote:

" Watching the top dogs shoot, I've come to think that it's not who pulls the trigger the best, reloads the fastest, or who can transition from box A to box B who wins.

It's the shooter with the ability to get through the match with no mental mistakes.

And that's where I want to be."

Its just like you to want to be the one to get through the match with no mental mistakes. Just exactly like you.

Regards,

[Jake Di Vita]

Best case scenario is to get to the point where you can score your targets real time as you are shooting them.

[j1b]

Exactly Jake

When done - then you'll either be national champ or you're shooting too slow.

Real time is pushing the LOHF and quite frankly if you call every shot exactly then either you're doing something nobody has figured out or you aren't actually shooting at your LOHF.

JB

[Loves2Shoot]

At local matches I'll generally score my targets. At bigger matches I just shoot and have someone I trust make sure the scoring is correct.

I agree with Jack, you can learn a lot from observing where your hits are. At big matches it is what it is so I don't bother paying attention to what Ive already done, I just focus on the next stage.

In practice I generally shoot the centers out of my targets and only tape non A's, but do make sure to shoot clean targets every once and awhile to make sure I am calling my shots acurately.

I can't even come close to scoring my targets while I shoot during a match, I guess for me there are so many partials I have a "go no go guage" as far as my shots go. I generally shoot good points, but I am not overly precise when shooting. I know from practice what is acceptable for each type of target.

For me it happens too fast to recall where the shots went on each target, but I sure as heck know when I broke a bad shot and make up for it immediately. This all happens in the non thinking part of my brian so I don't recall a lot of it.

The less I think, the better I do, go figure.

[Mike_Kerr]

Jake Di Vita wrote:

"Best case scenario is to get to the point where you can score your targets real time as you are shooting them"

I would really like to experience that on a regular basis.

Regards,

[Loves2Shoot]

Real time is pushing the LOHF and quite frankly if you call every shot exactly then either you're doing something nobody has figured out or you aren't actually shooting at your LOHF.

JB

I like the way you think Jack, I was thinking the exact same thing.