DrLove Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I was looking at some of the videos in slow motion of both myself and some of the top shooters and somehow I could see my gun/load is not as flat as some of those top shooters. Or is it that their grip is much better than mine and not really the gun load?? How would you test for that? Also, is there a test for "flatness"? How do I know if my load is really the best I can achieve or there is better other than how it feels? Is there some test/method that is accurate and objective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Flatness as in recoil or trajectory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLove Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Flatness as in recoil or trajectory? flatness as in muzzle rise/dot movement. Edited July 9, 2015 by DrLove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Feel and time are my best analysts for what you are describing. IF it feels flat, and the chrono puts that load in the correct pf range, you are good to go. Recoil management, that is a different story. If after you have practiced well, and feel you have your fundamentals down, try that load on the clock vs. some factory ammo, and see which is faster for you. I have found that often what I perceive as a hot round when I am shooting for groups, has little effect on my overall performance, as I can't really perceive recoil at speed. Once I start running and gunning, I am shooting my sights, and my plan, and have very little perception of recoil at speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 For me, "flat" is not anywhere near as important as predictable. My dot goes up and right back to the same place. So long as it doesn't leave the glass, I'm not too worried about how high it goes up. I just want it to end up in the same place after each shot. Recoil control is very important regardless of how flat your gun is. Poor recoil control on even a .22 will cause problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrLove Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 For me, "flat" is not anywhere near as important as predictable. My dot goes up and right back to the same place. So long as it doesn't leave the glass, I'm not too worried about how high it goes up. I just want it to end up in the same place after each shot. Recoil control is very important regardless of how flat your gun is. Poor recoil control on even a .22 will cause problems. So you guys are really saying it's not the load, it's the grip/recoil control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 it's your grip & your ability (or lack thereof) to manage recoil ... there is no 'controlling' recoil .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPostman Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) For me, "flat" is not anywhere near as important as predictable. My dot goes up and right back to the same place. So long as it doesn't leave the glass, I'm not too worried about how high it goes up. I just want it to end up in the same place after each shot. Recoil control is very important regardless of how flat your gun is. Poor recoil control on even a .22 will cause problems. +1. Makes for tighter doubles which is especially important on distant targets 10 yards and beyond. Grip and shoulder strength is very helpful in controlling recoil. Pick a load or ammo that you will use exclusively and train with it. Time yourself to the gun/ammo combination. You need to shoot double taps at targets at different distances like 5,10 and 15 yards. If you time the double tap correctly then the groups will be tight on all targets. So try shooting 1 second between shots and then gradually shorten the time between shots until the groups are as good as possible. Once you figure out what is the correct speed then practice it until it becomes automatic. It really doesn't take long for your muscles to learn. You may need to tune your gun first with recoil springs. If the muzzle dips on the second shot then you will need to go to a lighter recoil spring until it returns to the same spot. Too light of a spring and the second shot will be high. Edited July 9, 2015 by MrPostman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I don't know if this will help you or not, but it is the approach I took. After trying a variety of things that didn't work, I decided to try to get the dot or the sights to come back to the same place every time. I found that the placement of my strong hand around the pistol was key. When I used the method taught by Max Michel and some others, the gun recoiled at an angle and I'd have to hunt for the sights. I shifted my hand and experimented until the sights/dot went straight up and down. I also found it was a more comfortable position for the draw. Then I worked on my weak hand grip. I found I was not 100% consistent with it's placement. Once I straightened that out and learned to "lock" my left wrist, I experimented with weak hand pressure. I found you need quite a lot and downward force to go with it. I found out the old adage about there being no such thing as a too tight grip was wrong. Too tight and too much downward pressure makes the sights come back and dip low. Just the right amount of pressure makes them come back to the exact spot you want. MyPostman talks about timing. He is correct, and I'm still working on that. I'm fine on the practice range, but I get a couple of B zone hits every match because I rushed the second shot. BTW, I use a FFIII on all my pistols except for Limited. It has a small glass. I don't care if the dot leaves the window, as long as it settles in the same spot after each shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Hello: I would look at your load and at the mechanical parts of your pistol as well. What recoil spring, what mainspring, firing pin stop radius, powder choice, bullet weight? These are all things that can be changed easily and worth testing. 7 yards is a good distance to check all of these with a timer. Testing all of these is fun for me but it does take some time and every gun is different just like every shooter is. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 "Flatness" means very little. Predictability is far more important. You will eventually get used to the gun and be anticipating the dot. There is no magic pill, no perfect load, no ideal comp. Practice is the most important thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd7446 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 "Flatness" means very little. Predictability is far more important. You will eventually get used to the gun and be anticipating the dot. There is no magic pill, no perfect load, no ideal comp. Practice is the most important thing. Very solid advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZGunut Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Dr Love are you using a thumb rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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