Harmon Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 well i saw my first case head seperation in a 40 today..thankfully it wasnt my 40. at a local steel match, a guy was shooting STI edge with some handloads loaded with WST, 170 grian bullets and rifle primers. His loads were showing some evidence of primer flow(even with rifle primers) and the cases that were coming out of his gun were not bulged, but you could see the marks left by the chamber reamer on the ejected brass. His loads were pretty warm, but i dont know what the PF was... He was shooting the star, the gun began malfunctioning...piece of brass ejected in two pieces culprit brass was likely PMC brand load was 5.3 grains WST, 170 grain precision bullet. dont know the OAL, he was using win small rifle primers. the load is over book max, the brass is questionable, could a touch of bullet set back cause the KB? very likely. are you really gaining that much by using powders on the edge of safety? The one thing im certain of, IF that was his Para Instead of a STI, i dont think the gun would have made it. Come on guys, if winchester factory ammo makes 190 PF, and isnt over pressure, then why are folks blowing guns up trying to make 167PF?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achard Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I had tried p*ra with PF 193 (my 1st level 3) without chroning before the competition. It was just a guessed load and I finished the competition with out a problem. Dman! You're right! p*ra won't last long because after 2 years of using p*ra with 175pf it suddenly gave way. a cracked on rail appeared, just above the slide stop. It's not only me who encoutered this. I'm just wating for my new gun to finish from my smith (sps frame) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 well i saw my first case head seperation in a 40 today..thankfully it wasnt my 40.at a local steel match, a guy was shooting STI edge with some handloads loaded with WST, 170 grian bullets and rifle primers. His loads were showing some evidence of primer flow(even with rifle primers) and the cases that were coming out of his gun were not bulged, but you could see the marks left by the chamber reamer on the ejected brass. His loads were pretty warm, but i dont know what the PF was... He was shooting the star, the gun began malfunctioning...piece of brass ejected in two pieces culprit brass was likely PMC brand load was 5.3 grains WST, 170 grain precision bullet. dont know the OAL, he was using win small rifle primers. the load is over book max, the brass is questionable, could a touch of bullet set back cause the KB? very likely. are you really gaining that much by using powders on the edge of safety? The one thing im certain of, IF that was his Para Instead of a STI, i dont think the gun would have made it. Come on guys, if winchester factory ammo makes 190 PF, and isnt over pressure, then why are folks blowing guns up trying to make 167PF?? Because Winchester is using a slower powders in their load which greatly decreases pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 And because Winchester uses brand new brass and gawd only knows how many times that separated brass was loaded, after first being fired from gawd only knows what undersupported chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 WST is not too fast for 40SW. It is actually one of winchesters suggested calibers to reload with this powder straight out of their load books. I have been loading 5.2 grains under 180 gr. RNFP bullets (long OAL) for years with zero pressure signs or issues. As Erik already mentioned, how many times was this brass loaded before it failed? Probably just one too many loadings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 I have seen brand new PMC 40 give way twice...new in the box ammo (165's if I recall correctly). PMC never makes in into my 40 Major pile of brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 I had an overpressure load rip the case head off in my Para. PMC brass, 200 Gr Bear creek, 5.0 PB, Win SP Primers. I fired about a half box and thought to myelf, these feel a little warm. I wasn't getting any pressure signs, but it went off, blew the case head off, left the brass in the barrel and shoved the 10 rd magazine out through the magwell. Springs, follower and all. All I felt was the grips expanding in my hands a little. The gun was fine, nothing broken except for the magazine in lots of pieces. PB tends to be similar to Unique, but with a 200 grainer, it was just a little hot. I've not used it since. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 WST is too fast for 40cal if you use it at 5.3gr with a 170gr lead, IF YOU LOAD IT TOO SHORT, with as Eric suggest crap brass, reloaded ?????? times, from ????? gun . Winchesters maximum load is 5.0gr with a 170gr lead. So he is about 6-7% over max. This will give you 960 fps = 163pf. You can use 5.5gr under a jacketed projectile and only increase pf by 1.9 so why?? Using rifle primers because they prevent primer flow is a pretty ropey way of getting around pressure problems. I use and have seen used N320 to get 180pf with a 180gr lead, using rifle primers with no problems. WST is not as forgiving as N320 when you get to higher pressures, because it is made differently from slightly different products. Flex has a lovely set of pictures of what a man did to a SVI with to many hot loads with too much fast burning powder for one round too many. If he would be kind enough to attach them to this thread I would be greatful for the laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 gm iprod's SV pic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 pic 2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 That is painful to look at! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted February 22, 2005 Author Share Posted February 22, 2005 i get sick when i see that SV. his brass all came from brassman. alot of PMC 40s. his loads are about 1.145 He says its 5.3 grains...might actually be more. i think this happened because of slight bullet set back and PMC brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Damn! PMC brass has been fine for me in .223 and .45, but so far I haven't used any in .40 loads. Now I've got to find that link I have for ordering once-fired brass sorted by brand. I think I'll stick with Winchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 i think this happened because of slight bullet set back and PMC brass. Actually I like PMC brass the best for .40sw. A couple of years ago I traded for 20K once fired .40 cases from a local police range and almost 80% of it was PMC. I've gone through about 15K of it so far loaded long (1.200) with 5.2 grs of WST and 180gr rnfp plateds. Most of it, though, was only loaded once by me since I tend to leave it on the ground at matches. A lot of it was fired by the cops through glocks and has the characteristic bulge. I resize it using an EGW U die and have never had a problem with it. Not even a split neck......By the way, I have seen at least 4 slightly different headstamps from PMC and suspect that they are contracting others to produce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 If you do load it yourself, you have noone to blame...Stoopid is as Stoopid does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 the guy was actually loading nearly 6 grains of WST with 170 grain precision bullet. kinda odd since i load less than 5 with the same bullet and make major... i guess he wanted some bowling pin 40 cal loads....i dont think he was there...yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Harmongreer wrote: "i think this happened because of slight bullet set back and PMC brass." I agree. Another critical reason to use the Lee carbide U or undersize die in .40 along with the Lee carbide crimp die or FCD crimp die. I also find V V powder more forgiving with hot loads for both .40 and Major9. Regards, D.C. Johnson www.shootersparadise.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 after seeing that happen, i have since discontinued using WST in ANY MAJOR POWER 40 load. First its not as clean as many folks claim it to be. second, to get major power with jacketed bullets, need to run a max or near max load..something i may not feel comfortable doing in a glock. right now im re-experimenting with titegroup..results have been pretty good. the one load i tried was 4.3 grains TG with 180 grain bear creek bullet.. the load was OK on pressure but it chronoed at 1036 fps 10 shot avg. none of the rounds went over 1040, none went under 1030 fps.. I had developed that load over a chrono with a failing battery...it showed 927 fps one time before the batt died. I replaced the batt and then verified it over 2 chronographs..186 pf. i dropped the load to 4.0 and opened up the overall length from 1.125 to 1.140 Hopefully that will get the PF down to a sane amount...but even at over 185pf, the load was pretty controllable. i will check tomorrow with the new load..should be nice.. I can tell you that The can of powder i have now behaves differently than the original can that caused me to not like it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam38 Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 I had tried p*ra with PF 193 (my 1st level 3) without chroning before the competition. It was just a guessed load and I finished the competition with out a problem. Dman! You're right! p*ra won't last long because after 2 years of using p*ra with 175pf it suddenly gave way. a cracked on rail appeared, just above the slide stop. It's not only me who encoutered this. I'm just wating for my new gun to finish from my smith (sps frame) . <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just about all my Para guns have cracked --- but it's not a problem . Just take a Dremel and cut off the section of the rail from the crack to the rear where the rail joins the back (the same area where S*I's don't have a rail -- and probably SPS, too). I was at the Ohio Buckeye match one year and a buddy's Para frame cracked just liked you described. We went to the safe area and I wiggled - by hand - the rail and bent off the rail. The gun worked perfectly the rest of the match and is still running today. DVC, Sam Spiteri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 WST is fine for light plinking loads. I have used 3.4 gr. behind the 155 and 180 gr. LTC for steel plate shoots. The plates move albeit somewhat slowly. It's like shooting a 22. The topic starter mentioned a load of 5.3 gr. WST behind a 180 gr. lead bullet. The Winchester max is 5.0 gr. at 33200 psi, anyone approaching or using beyond these limits does so at his own peril. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 And since further discovery shows the guy was loading nearly 6 grains of WST, this entire story line about the imminent dangers of WST, bullet setback, and PMC brass is a bit overblown... if you'll pardon the pun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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