Soligen Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 I just had an ah-ha. I've been dry firing more, and really haven’t been having trouble by getting confused with double images like some people have mentioned (although I have had double images be confusing in the past). Perhaps I'm doing something right and just now figured out what it is. I'm sitting here at work practicing shifting focus far to near using my thumb as a simulated front sight. I'm doing this because It seems to take me a noticeable amount of time to shift focus from target to front sight. At almost 42, is it time for a cheater contact? I really don't have a problem focusing as close as 1 foot away, but I can't shift the focus instantly far to near. So, here's the ah-ha. When I shift focus without getting confused, the front sight comes into focus, but the front sight is still a double image, and not the target. The target is out of focus, with one image, the front sight is in sharp focus with two images. This way when I'm indexed properly the wrong front sight image is so far off to the side it is basically "out of the picture" to my perception and never comes into play to confuse me. I've seen several threads on shooting with both eye's open, but never seen it explained this way. I'm just a C shooter, so if I'm off base with this, someone please correct me. I'll be thrilled if this actually helps someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 It sounds like you're headed in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pact-Man Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 How is it possible to be focused on the front sight and have a double image of it at the same time? I am interested in this thread because I have trouble with double images when I shift focus from the target to the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 How is it possible to be focused on the front sight and have a double image of it at the same time? I am interested in this thread because I have trouble with double images when I shift focus from the target to the front sight. It isn't hard it's the only way I see it for me it is weird to see only one image. It is just the way people are made different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soligen Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 It's not something that’s natural to do. I didn't realize what I was doing at first, because I was trying to address a totally different issue. The issue I was trying to address was the time it took to shift focus from far to near - target to front sight. Seemed like it always took time after the gun arrives for me to see the front sight. Here is what I was going during dry fire. Stand at low ready, or gun holstered. Doesn’t really matter as long is the gun is outside your vision. Index on, and look at your target. Obviously since you are focused on your target, there will be no double image. Now, un-focus your eyes so the target is blurred. The gun is still down, just make the image blurred. Basically what you are doing is changing the point of focus closer to you than the target, even though there is nothing there to focus on. With target blurred, bring up the gun to your normal freestyle position. Assuming you pre-blurred the target the right amount, the front sight will instantly be in focus without any eye muscles needing to do anything, and your eyes were already "set" so there is only one image of the target. As long as you don’t change any muscles in the eyes, there will be two images of the gun, but the second gun will appear 4 - 6 inches to the right (assuming right eye dominant). This is far enough away that I can easily ignore the second gun image. What is happening with your eyes is basically the opposite of making them cross-eyed. I tried this pre-un-focusing (basically at "Stand By") to help speed front sight acquisition, and noticed the how it helped with double target images. I can't tell you how often I have broken shot before having a crisp view of the front sight. Most recently I tried by wife's reading glasses, which in effect blur the target by bring your focus point toward you. It was amazing to have the front sight be immediately in focus on bring up the gun. It was so amazing; that I theorize that a "cheater" lens could help younger shooters get the right focus, maybe not just for those of us in our 40's. I didn't think I needed a cheater lens because I don't need trading glasses, but now I think it will be a great help, and am anxious to try one for real. I'm almost 42, so I can’t really test this hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 The fact you see two thumbs is quite normal. Hold you thumb at arms length ( as if you could hold it further ) Now alternately close one eye and open the other, you see the thumb move from left to right. This is because the eyes are side by side so we see two slightly different angles. The brain normally pulls these together to form a single image. It is this ability that allows us to determine distance. This 3D effect is caused by the different angles that we view the object. The fact that you see two thumbs when switching from far to near focus is because you have not 'totally focused' on the thumb so your brain does not bring the two images together, this becomes more likely the older we get. You will notice that one image is more 'dense' than the other, this more solid image lines up with your dominant eye and is the only one you need to worry about when shooting. It is the image that lines up with the dominant eye that determines where the gun is aimed, so if you see two front sights, use the 'more solid' looking one and the shot should hit the target. Put simply you don't need to see a single front sight to fire an accurate shot just as long as you pick the right one - the more dense image - the one that lines up with the dominant shooting eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I only see two front sights when the light is poor, at an indoor range. Too often I see one sight on a target, and one on a no shoot. I just take the shot, assuming that I would not have pointed the gun at a no shoot. So far, I've not been wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 When I first started shooting some 20 years ago, I had a really tough time with the "double vision" problem. Over time (about a year or so) my vision slowly combined and I saw only one sight. I wish I could tell you exactly how I was able to take care of that problem, but I believe it was nothing more than conditioning my eyeballs and training my brain to see only one sight and eliminate that double vision. I recently had LASIK surgery on one eye, which just happened to be my non dominant eye. For 35 years my right eye was the dominate eye, and now I'm having to re-train my brain that when my glasses are off the left eye is actually the dominate eye. Point being, it takes time to re-train your brain/vision to have it do what you want it to do. Practice, Practice, Practice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 How is it possible to be focused on the front sight and have a double image of it at the same time? Impossible. If you have two eyes focused on the front sight, it will be in focus but parallax will put one of the two rear sight images in front of it. You can only get a single sight image with sight focus if one eye is closed. It sounds to me like this technique is an "intermediate" focus method where your eyes are actually focused at a point between the sight distance and the target.... enough so you can still get a single "sight line image" with the second gun image moved far enough to the right to not obstruct the sight image you are using to shoot with.... yet the nearer focal point is giving you a sharp enough sight image that you perceive it as "in focus".. and it probably is infocus well enough to align accurately. One thing to realize is there are two kinds of focus: visual focus and brain focus. I can focus both eyes on the target and raiss the gun into sight line (second gun image to the right) and the sights I see are blurry due to not being in "visual focus" . But without changing my eyes, I can shift my "brain focus " (awareness) to the blurry sight image and align the gun very accurately then return awareness to the target and fire. I also use a "nearer" lense in the sighting eye to shift sight focus in closer, so I see a relatively clear sight image and also a clear target image with eyes relaxed to distance... and simply shift brain focus back and forth to align the gun and then fire. I suspect that intermediate sighting lense is doing what you are describing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierruiggi Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 How is it possible to be focused on the front sight and have a double image of it at the same time? Impossible. If you have two eyes focused on the front sight, it will be in focus but parallax will put one of the two rear sight images in front of it. You can only get a single sight image with sight focus if one eye is closed. It sounds to me like this technique is an "intermediate" focus method where your eyes are actually focused at a point between the sight distance and the target.... enough so you can still get a single "sight line image" with the second gun image moved far enough to the right to not obstruct the sight image you are using to shoot with.... yet the nearer focal point is giving you a sharp enough sight image that you perceive it as "in focus".. and it probably is infocus well enough to align accurately. One thing to realize is there are two kinds of focus: visual focus and brain focus. I can focus both eyes on the target and raiss the gun into sight line (second gun image to the right) and the sights I see are blurry due to not being in "visual focus" . But without changing my eyes, I can shift my "brain focus " (awareness) to the blurry sight image and align the gun very accurately then return awareness to the target and fire. I also use a "nearer" lense in the sighting eye to shift sight focus in closer, so I see a relatively clear sight image and also a clear target image with eyes relaxed to distance... and simply shift brain focus back and forth to align the gun and then fire. I suspect that intermediate sighting lense is doing what you are describing. My eyes seem to disagree with what you said! I'd say there are at least 2 different kinds of focus. Eye focus, that means, what your eyes (pupils) are "aiming" to, and lens focus, that is, the shape the inner lens in your eye takes in order to see a sharp crisp image instead of a blurry foggy one at different distances. I can certainly see 2 targets in blurry focus, while at the same time see 2 crisp front sights. All I have to do (I do it subconsciously now) is align the "LEFT" front sight with the "RIGHT" target in order to hit. I'm right eye dominant. However, if I decide to place both my "eye focus" and my "lens focus" on the target, I see one crisp target and 2 blurry sights. Perhaps this does have something to do with what you said regarding the distance to the object you are seeing, but I can see those "dual" sights in clear sharp focus at the same time, I tested this by closing my non dominant eye and I still see it with the same amount of "crispiness". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 as you progress and you improve your awareness you will pick up many other things during the shooting,the trick is to know through experience what you need to guide you to make a successful hit!! No matter how many sight pictures etc. that you see you know that it is only ONE that is needed for the shot..use it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soligen Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 When you focus, there are two things. Muscles in each eye adjust the lense to focus on an object based on it's distance. Cover one eye, then look at things near and far and this us the focusing that is done. This is the same kind of focusing a camera does The other thing that happens (not really focusing) is adjusting where your eyes are pointing in relation to each other. The directions that the eyes point are normally not parallel to each other. If you extend a line from each eye in the direction each is pointing, the lines will intersect. When we see normally, we autmatically adjust focus to make the object we are looking at sharp. We also automatically adjust where our eyes are pointed so that the "lines" intersect right at the object we are looking at, giving us one in-focus image (all automatic - ain't the brain amazing!). All other objects in periferial vision that are significantly nearer or farther will be fuzzy, and double image, except we rarely notice this becasue we don't pay attention to these other objects. This is the way your vision normally works - automatically, but it can be over-ridden to essentialy cross-control the 2 things. Have your eyes focus on an object close, but have the lines intersect at a distant object. It's not "Natural", but you can do it. May be easier for some than others, just like some people can make their eye's go cross-eyed easier than others. For me, I can do it, but need to get better. It is sometimes slow geting into this mode, and takes concious thought - more practice is in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 4, 2005 Share Posted March 4, 2005 I'm right eye dominant.However, if I decide to place both my "eye focus" and my "lens focus" on the target, I see one crisp target and 2 blurry sights. That sounds right. A Meritt sighter will make both the target and sights be in focus at the same time (optical peep sighter). That's how I do it. but I can see those "dual" sights in clear sharp focus at the same time, I tested this by closing my non dominant eye and I still see it with the same amount of "crispiness". That would mean you have lense focus on the sights but eyes are still aligned at target. That's one I have never done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierruiggi Posted March 5, 2005 Share Posted March 5, 2005 Let me graphicate a bit more what I said. The orange/red graphic is what my right (dominant) eye sees; the light blue/blue is what my left eye sees. Lens focus is on the front sigh with both eyes, target and rear sight are blurry. The green circle is where me eyes are locked, as you can see, it's not exactly on the front sight, it's a bit in front of it. Both eyes open, Type 4 or Type 5 focus. Same as above, closing the left eye. Now Closing the right eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Pierruiggi, Nice graphic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Let me graphicate a bit more what I said. Wow! That's an excellent graphic. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Maybe I am confused but is the last graphic more indicative of left eye dominance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Maybe I am confused but is the last graphic more indicative of left eye dominance? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ahh, barhopper, you are very wise. It is that is why it says right eye closed, that would make the left eye dominant in that condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Master, this lowly one means no disrespect but doesn't the magnitude of the angle depend on the severity of the dominance? It just seemed to me that with his dominant eye closed (right), in order to experience that magnitude of angle with the non-dominant eye, would be close to your type of vision where there is little difference in dominance between the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 ...doesn't the magnitude of the angle depend on the severity of the dominance? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nope, it depends on how far apart your eyes are and where you hold the gun Draw a triangle with the base being your eyes and the top being your front sight and it might make more sense the my explination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Magnitude of angle, according to his graphic denotes clarity. I wonder if there is only a slight difference in dominance and whether or not he is slightly short-sighted in the right eye and possibly left. If when shooting with both eyes open he experiences shots trending left (eliminating trigger control) then short sightedness in the right is the issue (based on graphic) and the left eye is taking over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Just to instigate... If I focus on the front sight with my right eye and see a 2nd [hazy] front sight some distance to the left - I'm actually focused a little ahead of the front sight. The image quality of the rear sight seems about 60% or maybe 70% as good as compared to the front sight. I think most ppl shoot this way. If I focus on the front sight with BOTH eyes I don't see a 2nd front sight [at least not the serrated face of it - maybe a bit of the left side of it] and now the rear sight's image quality is about 30% or maybe 40% as good, compared to the front sight. My confidence in my sight alignment has plummeted and I'm not sure what I'm aimed at all. I doubt many ppl shoot this way. I think more ppl split their vision partway between the front sight & the target. The rest of us use tape.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierruiggi Posted March 19, 2005 Share Posted March 19, 2005 I'm glad the graphic I made caused this thread to go into even greater depths of discussion. caspian28r: Yes, I think you're right, that's why I said I focus a bit in front of the front sight. Focusing exactly on the front sight with both eyes create a weird (as in "less efficient") sight picture to me. Sandoz: As far as I know, I never had any visual related problems. I doubt I'm short sighted in one or both eyes. And I don't know if the graphic is 100% accurate regarding the angle I see things with my left (non dominant) eye. I made it awhile ago and I don't remember now, but it's possible I made it exaggerated in certain features in order to make my point clear(er). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 20, 2005 Share Posted March 20, 2005 Let me graphicate a bit more what I said.The orange/red graphic is what my right (dominant) eye sees; the light blue/blue is what my left eye sees. Lens focus is on the front sigh with both eyes, target and rear sight are blurry. The green circle is where me eyes are locked, as you can see, it's not exactly on the front sight, it's a bit in front of it. Both eyes open, Type 4 or Type 5 focus. Same as above, closing the left eye. Now Closing the right eye. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am left eye dominant, and I shoot with both eyes open. The top image is pretty much what I see, except I don't see the blue circle (a hazy, displaced image of the target), unless it is very close (1, maybe 2 yards). I have learned to ignore that "side image" of the gun. Infact, that's what I experience as dominance - I can ignore that other image if it is from my right eye, but not if it from my left eye. By keeping both eyes open, I maintain peripherial vision (finding targets, cover, etc, balance when moving, and depth perception (so I can keep from slamming into things). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seniorlefty Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Here is how I solved my focusing problem. I am a lefty with left eye dominance, but it seems to me that my right eye isn't too far behind in trying to dominate my sight picture. This is very confusing at times so I took my mid range glasses (the ones I use for the computer) and stuck a target paster on the right lens over the spot where the sight picture would be at my shooting stance. This allows me to keep both eyes open and brings the front sight into clear focus. The target is a little fuzzy this way but it can be centered with a little practice. Kind of a convoluted explanation, but somebody might get some thing out of it. seniorlefty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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