phecksel Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Finally bought the "M" die to load cast bullets. Trying to avoid sending cases through the Dillon 650 twice, put the die in station 3. However, it's slightly compressing the powder. Is this a potential pressure concern? I ran across a split case while loading today, its history mine, or prior is completely unknown. Began to wonder if maybe it came from the recent batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 What is a M die? and why would you send cases through twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Does the Dillon funnel not expand the case neck enough? Looks like the M die is a cast bullet thing. I never realized cast bullets were so oversize that they had to have special dies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 it's slightly compressing the powder. Is this a potential pressure concern? Yes, it is. Best to drop your powder charge by 10%, and work up, slowly, with a chronograph, to your desired PF/velocity, just in case. Your split case could have come from anywhere - I find them once in a while - I use free range brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaskillo Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 O try Titegroup...what powder are you using now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasref Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It is a pressure concern. There's not much room in the case, and pressures increase dramaticly when OAL is shortened, NEVER LOAD SHORT !! Iv'e never heard of compressed loads in 9mm before. I would be very careful of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Not to interrupt this 'anti compressed load' excitement, but I don't think the OP is saying he's compressing the powder with the bullet, but rather with his expander die in position #3 before he seats the bullet right? We can talk about you irrational fear of "compressed loads" in another thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 How about a little more information? What charge of which powder? bullet weight? OAL, it seems to me you might be running the expander die in further than you need to, especially if you're splitting cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phecksel Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 As I've since learned, traditional die doesn't open the case up enough for a cast bullet. Cast bullet will deform. M die also creates a "ledge" to hold the bullet straight before going into the bullet set station. If it's slightly crooked, it will deform the bullet and make it unbalanced, leading to tumbling, which I have experienced. I started shooting the cast bullet for two reasons, one is the cost, they are pretty dang inexpensive. The second and even more important reason, the SWCFP makes a beautiful non arguable hole in the paper Putting the M die in station 3 is slightly compressing the powder from the physical characteristics of the die. Running it through twice, I would do station 1 and the M die first time through. 2nd time would be to powder drop and primer, bullet set, and crimp. I'm trying to avoid this. Below is the commentary from Dardas Bullets site http://www.dardascastbullets.com/ It is imperative that you understand that cast bullets are a world apart from jacketed bullets - they are NOT the same! The reloading process for cast bullets MUST NOT in anyway, shape, or form, alter, damage or destroy the cast bullet! It is like comparing rocks to bananas - hard vs. soft. Your cast bullets fall into the 'soft' category. They are to be treated with tender loving care! Your dies shall NOT damage them! Do not flare the case mouths for cast bullet reloading - you will damage them by shaving the shanks of the bullets during the seating operation. If you don't believe me, take a magnifying loop and look very closely at the reloaded cast bullet cartridge and you will see shavings that are deposited on the edge of the case mouth about 180 degrees around the mouth. Why is this you ask? It is because you are shaving the bullets as they are being seated. The bullet rotates on top of the radius edge that you created by flaring the case mouth. You then have to hope and pray that the seater stem will capture the nose of the bullet and re-right it to make it straight with the case - it isn't going happen! Thou Shalt Not Flare Case Mouths For Cast Bullets! You MUST use the correct technique for preparing the case mouths to receive cast bullets without damaging them. And that is with the use of the Lyman 2 Step M Expander Die. This die imparts a 2 step I.D. into the case mouth. It creates a slip fit nest for the bullet to slide into. Thus preventing and eliminating the tipping of the bullet and the premature closure of the case mouth onto the bullet during the seating operation. Lyman 4 die sets are the only dies manufactured that will reload cast bullets and jacketed bullets interchangeably and correctly. And this is due to the 2 Step M die that is incorporated into their 4 die sets. There are other die manufacturers that have emulated the Lyman M Die. It is also imperative that you understand the critical nature of the seater stem in your seater die! Make absolutely certain that the seater stem is engaging the ogive of the bullet about half way down from the tip. And that the tip is not contacting the seater stem! This is critical for straight bullet alignment (preventing shaving the bullet) during the seating operation. Cast bullet reloading is entirely different than jacketed bullet reloading - understand this and you are on your way to a very successful career with cast bullet reloading and shooting! Please do not use factory crimp dies for cast bullet reloading. Cast bullets MUST remain in their pristine state in order to shoot accurately. Factory crimp dies will decrease the cast bullet's sized diameter and thus will cause many unwanted issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phecksel Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 How about a little more information? What charge of which powder? bullet weight? OAL, it seems to me you might be running the expander die in further than you need to, especially if you're splitting cases. CFEP 4.2gr 126gr SWCFP 1.140. The split case I found wasn't caused during loading, It was picked up. I don't know if it was one of mine or some other range pickup brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I wouldn't worry about the die pushing down on the powder a little with CFE, I've compressed it with the bullet without issue. My question is this: is your M die going in further than your bullet seating depth? You load doesn't look like the bullet would touch the powder, so why should the die? Is your bullet really long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I wonder if the MBF funnel wouldn't achieve the same results? Sounds like a ton of work to save a few bucks but like KA said don't sweat the powder getting compressed. You're not gonna hurt it. Make sure you're not overdoing the expanding as you might lose some neck tension I guess. So the article you posted compares loading these to loading Jacketed bullets. A bunch of us load coated lead bullets, cheap plated bullets that are oversized compared to Jacketed and we don't use anything special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phecksel Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I wouldn't worry about the die pushing down on the powder a little with CFE, I've compressed it with the bullet without issue. My question is this: is your M die going in further than your bullet seating depth? You load doesn't look like the bullet would touch the powder, so why should the die? Is your bullet really long? Really good question! The shoulder is set to 1/16" depth, and maybe leading to the expander going too deep. The die expander may be longer than needed. I'll look at physically altering the die expander to no deeper than the bullet depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I wouldn't worry about the die pushing down on the powder a little with CFE, I've compressed it with the bullet without issue. My question is this: is your M die going in further than your bullet seating depth? You load doesn't look like the bullet would touch the powder, so why should the die? Is your bullet really long? Really good question! The shoulder is set to 1/16" depth, and maybe leading to the expander going too deep. The die expander may be longer than needed. I'll look at physically altering the die expander to no deeper than the bullet depth. It would seem to me if you expand too deep you are just asking for bullet setback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A63111 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I tried the MBF powder funnel Sarge mentioned. Seemed to work well on the 550 with Obejihead bullets, no scraping off the coating, should work on lead as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDA Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Does the Dillon funnel not expand the case neck enough? Looks like the M die is a cast bullet thing. I never realized cast bullets were so oversize that they had to have special dies? I am still trying to figure out why the Dillon funnel isn't providing enough bell. I have loaded cast and coated cast on my 650 with the standard 9mm funnel with zero issues. The stock Dillon funnel is capable of providing far more bell than needed. I have Lyman M dies for when I am loading rifle loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phecksel Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 Does the Dillon funnel not expand the case neck enough? Looks like the M die is a cast bullet thing. I never realized cast bullets were so oversize that they had to have special dies? I am still trying to figure out why the Dillon funnel isn't providing enough bell. I have loaded cast and coated cast on my 650 with the standard 9mm funnel with zero issues. The stock Dillon funnel is capable of providing far more bell than needed. I have Lyman M dies for when I am loading rifle loads. It provides enough of a bell. M die opens the case a bit more. The 2nd stage provides a "flat" ledge for the bullet to sit straight in. The bell doesn't allow for the same "stability". Some have modified .38 powder drops, but I didn't have the same luck at modifying it. I was seeing too many lead particles from loading with the std die. "M" die eliminated that problem, but I'm concerned with powder compression it's currently creating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRobson Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 From the sounds of it, The Mr. Bullet Feeder powder funnel will do everything the M die will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A63111 Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I have found that with more than enough bell on using a Dillon powder funnel you can still get scraping. Seems to be eliminated with the MBF. Doesn't over work the brass either. Edited January 26, 2015 by A63111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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