Division Consolidation?

[MikeRush]

The Production Optics thread (and others lately) got me thinking about the purpose and utility of the different divisions we have in USPSA. I know things are unlikely to change, but a recurring theme from that thread is the feeling that we already have too many divisions with low participation as is. One way to address the issue of low division participation may be division consolidation.

Open, Limited, and Prod seem to be healthy. SS also seems to have decent participation, while revo and L10 are definitely lagging behind. When a division has less than 1 squad worth of shooters at an area match that isn't exactly healthy competition. There is some momentum behind the idea of increasing the Production magazine restriction to 15. Revo is revo... that was supposed to boom with the 8 round minor option, but that is beside the point.

It seems people feel we must have a place for everyone's gun to be "competitive" (whatever that means- we put way too much emphasis on equipment as is). Examples: Shooter has a double stack 45 that is not competitive in Limited, shooter has girl sized hands and wants to shoot a double stack 40 that only holds 12 rounds, etc. These typically fall into L10. SS is quite lively, at least compared to L10 and Revo. 10 round minor and 8 round major seems to be working well for single stack, ie there is no one answer of which gun will provide an advantage over the course of the match. The world shoot proved that the more liberal rules for classic division didn't put the traditional single stack in risk of extinction. And there will always be the guy who shows up with a P226 and 10 round magazines.

What if L10 was restructured, and became the home for L10, SS, and "Prod-10"? Make it 8 round major, 10 round minor, iron sights... and let things develop from there.

Perhaps this is a silly idea, and I am sure there are those who will tell me so, but we could make a home for some heads up, limited capacity competition.

I'm from Southern California (for some reason the rest of the country things we only shoot SS and Prod) and we have maybe 1 to 3 shooters at a given local match shooting L10, and maybe 7 or 8 shooting SS. You could take essentially all the L10 and SS shooters, plus Prod shooters who only have 10 round mags, and let them all shoot together- and maybe you would have 15 in a division. You could keep L10 belt equipment rules, or just take Prod belt rules... Prod holster and position rules would make it a fairly easy crossover from IDPA. Perhaps it fits the box, without the magazine inserted- no weight restriction.

The tactical shooters who have had grip mods done on Glocks, the die hard SS guys, the guy with the Glock 21 that thinks it shoots softer than a 35, etc could all play on a relatively even playing field. You wouldn't have to hear the whining of the guys whose SS doesn't make weight because they chose G10 grips, a steel mainspring housing and magwell, and a full length guide rod. CZ, Glock, Tanfoglio, Springfield, STI, Grand Power... tons of manufacturers make guns that could be competitive in a division like that.

Thoughts? I'm not really pro or anti Prod Optics, but I think it would address both the low participation divisions and allow for Prod to move to 15 rounds. It would allow more people a place to play, and discourage hiding, as USPSA would be deepening the talent pool in the restricted capacity division.

[motosapiens]

What if L10 was restructured, and became the home for L10, SS, and "Prod-10"? Make it 8 round major, 10 round minor, iron sights... and let things develop from there.

I think that's an idea worth considering (and I have suggested it before). I don't really think there's any momentum at all behind increasing the mag cap to 15 in production tho.

I don't know if a heads-up limited capacity division would lead to 1 particular 'mandatory' platform. It might, but it might just be that sheep believe it's mandatory, like they believe you have to shoot major in SS to be competitive (at all matches, not just SS nats).

Is it reasonable for 1911's shooting 10-rnd minor to be competing with production cz's and tanfos? At the local level, I think so. At the national level, it might lead to 1 platform becoming totally dominant.

But whatever. I don't really care. I like shooting and I will buy whatever gun I need to be competitive in the division I enjoy shooting.

[Ron Ankeny]

At the national level, it might lead to 1 platform becoming totally dominant.

Would be interesting to see if skinny minor could compete with fat major.

[Butterpuc]

At the national level, it might lead to 1 platform becoming totally dominant.

Would be interesting to see if skinny minor could compete with fat major.

This topic interests me also. I really like shooting SS, and I do shoot 45 Major. There may be 3 of us at the local match of 50 shooters, 25+ of those are probably Limited shooters. I have tried designing a spreadsheet of my results to compare myself to my Limited Major buddies, probably ~10-15 really competitive Limited Shooters. And that is subjective at best.

Lumping some divisions together may help group some of us together and there is no easy answer. In my opinion the double stack steel CZ/Tanfo have an advantage over the 1911s, particularly with reloads. And both of those platforms have a recoil advantage over striker fired pistols. But you have to draw the line somewhere. You can't have a division for evey make and model of gun out there.

[MarkCO]

Also, with the adoption of the new USPSA rule regarding local laws w.r.t. capacity limits, L10 has lost it's basis for existence.

[motosapiens]

At the national level, it might lead to 1 platform becoming totally dominant.

Would be interesting to see if skinny minor could compete with fat major.

I think the world shoot demonstrated that skinny major can *easily* compete, unless the stages are specifically designed to favor major and not reward the extra capacity.

[motosapiens]

In my opinion the double stack steel CZ/Tanfo have an advantage over the 1911s, particularly with reloads.

I've only started practicing again with my SS rig this morning, but my reloads are only .1 slower than with my limited or production rig, and I have a carry-style magwell. I'm not convinced there is any disadvantage with a race magwell. I bet people would *believe* there was a disadvantage tho, the same way they used to think steel da/sa guns were a disadvantage, and now they think crappy plastic guns are a disadvantage. The placebo effect is real.

At any rate, I think locally I am just going to informally recognize a low-cap division (by talking smack on the internet after our monthly matches). Since none of those divisions are as popular as Limited here, I think it will be fun and motivating. This week 2MoreChains was the low-cap overall winner (shooting production).

Edited December 28, 2014 by motosapiens

[aandabooks]

I personally prefer Production to stay the way it is. I wouldn't want to see a move to 15 rounds. I like having to think a little more about how I'm going to shoot a stage.

I really don't see where L10 fits anymore. At the match today we had 1 shooter signup out of 51 total shooters.

I've been shooting Production as my main division and Revolver as a second with a 625. I have no interest in shooting Limited or Open because I can't/don't want to afford the equipment race or just stuff as many rounds in the mags as I can get extensions for and blaze away.

[Nik Habicht]

Also, with the adoption of the new USPSA rule regarding local laws w.r.t. capacity limits, L10 has lost it's basis for existence.

Nah. It's still a division for guns that don't fit well anywhere else.....

At the very least, if L10 were to go away, we'd have to open SS to all single stack guns, not just 1911s.....

And for the record, I'mm not in favor of either one of those things.....