clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I can't find the thread discussing this that I read earlier. As I am trying to help my girlfriend and her friend start shooting production I asked DNROI and here is his reply. (email copy and pasted) Hope this helps some people out with clarifying the rule. " Good evening, Sheldon. Unfortunately, removing the grip panel/backstrap component on the M&P Pro pistol changes the factory profile of the pistol, and is not allowed. Interchanging the grip panels is fine, but removing them will render the pistol illegal for Production division. You quoted the correct section number from Appendix D4, #22.2.Regards,Troy " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 That was a non starter from the get go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkMyDuds Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I asked my local club the same question, and got the same answer. Seeing how most people with small hands play G34 without any backstrap in IDPA SSP, I thought we can do the same on MP9 pro. Nope, we cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Just to be a devils advocate, how is changing the profile by removing the backstrap different than changing the profile by changing the backstrap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 My guess would be that the gun is approved with any of the grip inserts installed. Removing a piece of the grip would not be a complete approved grip variation. Plus it changes the weight which opens up another can of worms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Just to be a devils advocate, how is changing the profile by removing the backstrap different than changing the profile by changing the backstrap? I would be happier if production stood for, "pull it from the box, change the sights and shoot the MOFO." I only even asked as the girls both have small hands and want something more comfortable to shot. gonna look around and have them shoot everything i can find till they find something they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkMyDuds Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Try G34 without any backstrap. I know that is legal for IDPA SSP. I have small hands, and I have tried all the popular ones in IDPA, MP9, G34,XDM etc. I think the G34 without backstrap is your best bet. Or if you are willing to play in ESP, you can have your grip reduced. Just google "handgun grip reduction". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) Just to be a devils advocate, how is changing the profile by removing the backstrap different than changing the profile by changing the backstrap? I would be happier if production stood for, "pull it from the box, change the sights and shoot the MOFO." I only even asked as the girls both have small hands and want something more comfortable to shot. gonna look around and have them shoot everything i can find till they find something they like. Why do they have to shoot Production? Are they that concerned about being competitive? Put them in Limited and let them have fun without having to reload every time they take a breath. Edited December 2, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Only looking for USPSA LEGAL. Thanks anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 They are both very competitive. I am not about to tell them that they should play in limited minor cause they don;t wanna shot a .40 at major power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) If it's a huge issue pack the mags full and shoot in Limited. Edit: Just saw the most recent post. Tell them they'll do better than most of the Production crew by using 17 round magazines Edited December 2, 2014 by thermobollocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 My guess would be that the gun is approved with any of the grip inserts installed. Removing a piece of the grip would not be a complete approved grip variation. Plus it changes the weight which opens up another can of worms is there a list of approved grip panels per model that I have missed? How is this different than a gen4 Glock without a backstrap Just to be a devils advocate, how is changing the profile by removing the backstrap different than changing the profile by changing the backstrap? I would be happier if production stood for, "pull it from the box, change the sights and shoot the MOFO." I only even asked as the girls both have small hands and want something more comfortable to shot. gonna look around and have them shoot everything i can find till they find something they like. You would have it so changing back straps or grip panels at all would be illegal? so on guns like the M+P whatever size was installed at the factory would be how you had to run it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 My guess would be that the gun is approved with any of the grip inserts installed. Removing a piece of the grip would not be a complete approved grip variation. Plus it changes the weight which opens up another can of worms is there a list of approved grip panels per model that I have missed? How is this different than a gen4 Glock without a backstrap Just to be a devils advocate, how is changing the profile by removing the backstrap different than changing the profile by changing the backstrap? I would be happier if production stood for, "pull it from the box, change the sights and shoot the MOFO." I only even asked as the girls both have small hands and want something more comfortable to shot. gonna look around and have them shoot everything i can find till they find something they like. You would have it so changing back straps or grip panels at all would be illegal? so on guns like the M+P whatever size was installed at the factory would be how you had to run it? yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Kind of kills the whole point of supplying multiple options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camazama Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I would be interested in seeing the measurable differences between 1) no backstrap/just grip tape and 2) small backstrap VERSUS 3) small backstrap and 4) large backstrap. Unscientifically, I believe there is a greater profile change between 3-4 then between 1-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Kind of kills the whole point of supplying multiple options I'm jerking your chain. I am annoyed by the lack of consistency USPSA seems to have between grips being ok, but not the back strap of the grip and the very vague language used. If the rues say you can change grips then we should be able to change the grip. It is a pain to have to find the correct interpretation of a rule so as not to be playing with an illegal gun. It would be nice to have clear cut rules and why is grip reduction such a big deal, especially when so many firearms today are built to large for some women to grip. I am excited that my girl and her friend wants to learn this game and play with the big boys. They are hell to play games with cause they hate to loss. Fortunately they tried the grip on an SP-01 and found it very comfortable so now I can go that route with ultra thin grips and grip tape and we should be all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 SP-01 is a better gun anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I would be interested in seeing the measurable differences between 1) no backstrap/just grip tape and 2) small backstrap VERSUS 3) small backstrap and 4) large backstrap. Unscientifically, I believe there is a greater profile change between 3-4 then between 1-2.How is that pertinant? The rule cited says you can't change the profile, not you can only change the profile so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camazama Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I would be interested in seeing the measurable differences between 1) no backstrap/just grip tape and 2) small backstrap VERSUS 3) small backstrap and 4) large backstrap. Unscientifically, I believe there is a greater profile change between 3-4 then between 1-2.How is that pertinant? The rule cited says you can't change the profile, not you can only change the profile so much. But aren't you changing the profile by changing backstraps? My understanding is the difference between small backstrap and large backstrap is negligible and does not change the profile. While the difference between no backstrap and small backstrap is signigicant. What is the point that the profile is considered changed? Simply curious and measurements would provide a better understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 The gun with all back straps is on the approved list. The gun without a back strap is not legal. Why am I the only one that thinks that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Sarge, I was airing my frustrations but i do get that they are approved with the back straps. I started this just to let everyone know what official reply I received. At least in my house the girls are happy, and I am just waiting for Mr. Cheely to finish my build. (2 days down 178 or so to go) Shug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camazama Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 The gun with all back straps is on the approved list. The gun without a back strap is not legal. Why am I the only one that thinks that make sense? Sarge - I'll agree what you said ^^^^ makes sense, and as a newer shooter, I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgeable. I am not trying to be sarcastic, but is there a difference between grip and backstrap? I can have tape on the backstrap but I cannot add or remove material from the grip which changes the profile. I'm just trying to understand and become a more knowledgeable competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 This makes perfect sense, the gun in its stock configuration and with any of the parts that came in the box is perfectly legal. Completely removing parts is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkMyDuds Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 The gun with all back straps is on the approved list. The gun without a back strap is not legal. Why am I the only one that thinks that make sense? By this definition, people shooting gen4 G34 without any backstrap (but with talon grip) would be violating the rules? I have seen dozens people doing that... If you look at the pictures below, G34 without backstrap looks "complete", while MP9 without backstrap looks like missing something. Maybe that's why, the looks? In fact, I can cover the "naked" back of the MP9 grip with talon grip and make it look "complete" for the looks sake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 The gun with all back straps is on the approved list. The gun without a back strap is not legal. Why am I the only one that thinks that make sense?I just looked at the approved gun list and all I see is M+P, caliber, barrel length and weight. I see no mention of the backstraps. I don't see how this goes against the word or intention of the rules. The gun unmodified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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