How strict and "tough" are you with "gamers" when ROin

[Sarge]

Guess I didn't decipher the low ready part correctly. I thought he was just talking about arms pointed forward with elbows in sides.

If you guys are starting shooters with guns in their hands I would quit worrying about gamers and set up an RO class for everybody!

Why make comments like this when it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? Both Steel Challenge (for rimfire shooters) and NSSF Rimfire Challenge begin at "low ready" which means gun in hand -- typically pointed at something or with other directions such as the ones I noted.

Why make comments like this? Because you posted a generic question on a forum that is at least 80% USPSA oriented.

What's your next question? Something like what gun is best? Good luck getting help after this DH

[Hotchkiss]

I apologize if my post came off as something other than what was intended. You are clearly "tougher" than I am. You have snapped back at everybody who has offered their opinion here. If you are so set in your ways and ideas, why ask the question?

I have not snapped back at everyone that has given input. That's simply not true. You assumed it was a USPSA match and you assumed the WSB was in error which they were not. I responded directly because I didn't want the thread to be further derailed.

My question has more to do with strict adherence to the rules in a specific situation than the rules themselves. More specifically I was curious if most here would look past what they felt was an infraction of an increasingly agitated shooter or would they force the shooter to comply and how exactly would they go about it?

Posting #9 said "...Parallel is parallel, otherwise you will be cutting the first guy some slack, the second guy a bit more and where does it end?..." and I tend to strongly agree. I was just curious about the views of others who have RSOed here?

[Hotchkiss]

Guess I didn't decipher the low ready part correctly. I thought he was just talking about arms pointed forward with elbows in sides.

If you guys are starting shooters with guns in their hands I would quit worrying about gamers and set up an RO class for everybody!

Why make comments like this when it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? Both Steel Challenge (for rimfire shooters) and NSSF Rimfire Challenge begin at "low ready" which means gun in hand -- typically pointed at something or with other directions such as the ones I noted.

Why make comments like this? Because you posted a generic question on a forum that is at least 80% USPSA oriented.

What's your next question? Something like what gun is best? Good luck getting help after this DH

I posted this question on "General Match Issues" and not the USPSA forum. Your "RO class" comment was rude. Do me a favor simply ignore any other posts I might place in the future. Thanks in advance.

[alma]

I think it's pretty important to know which sport since each rulebook gives you a different set of tools to deal with issues or perhaps can even specify whether the thing you are observing is even an issue per the rules.

Hopefully the snippets from the correct rulebook will help.

[Hotchkiss]

I think it's pretty important to know which sport since each rulebook gives you a different set of tools to deal with issues or perhaps can even specify whether the thing you are observing is even an issue per the rules.

Hopefully the snippets from the correct rulebook will help.

It is indeed important to know the rules, I have the rulebook but my question was more about interpreting said rules and how specifically to deal with a problematic shooter.

In a USPSA environment what would an RSO do if a competitor was gaming on the start? Would they be absolutely by the book at posting #9 suggested (which is definitely my inclination) or would they have some level (no matter how large or small) of tolerance?

[alma]

I think it's pretty important to know which sport since each rulebook gives you a different set of tools to deal with issues or perhaps can even specify whether the thing you are observing is even an issue per the rules.

Hopefully the snippets from the correct rulebook will help.

It is indeed important to know the rules, I have the rulebook but my question was more about interpreting said rules and how specifically to deal with a problematic shooter.

In a USPSA environment what would an RSO do if a competitor was gaming on the start? Would they be absolutely by the book at posting #9 suggested (which is definitely my inclination) or would they have some level (no matter how large or small) of tolerance?

The real question should be what does the rulebook allow. Edited November 1, 2014 by alma

[sarnburg]

The stage the OP is talking about is 1 Second challenge. Here is a video of someone shooting it:

The primary goal it to shoot the stage fast, like any other steel match stage. A secondary challenge is to shoot all five shots in under 1 second.

With this added challenge competitors will push the WSB to the limits. The latest NSSF rimfire rules describe the alternate starting position fairly well:

7.1 Starting Position

7.1.1 Handgun Participant will start with handgun in hand(s) ready to fire

with the safety disengaged, aiming at a designated object (orange cone) 10

feet down range. Alternate start position may be elbows at side with arms

and gun barrel parallel with ground.

Also

8.1.1 “Shooter Load and Make Ready” – This command signifies the start

of the course of fire. Under the direct supervision of the RSO, the

participant must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the

RSO, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with

the written stage briefing. The participant must then assume the required

start position. At this point, the RSO will proceed.

If they do not assume the start position then you wait. Eventually they will figure it out, or ask you why they are not getting the start signal.

As I was writing the reply it occurred to me that the stage may not have been legal as written. I would have to read the WSB to be sure, but the change from NSSF from Ruger also included a rule book change. The alternate start is no longer as tightly defined (ie elbows touching sides) as it was in the past.

Scott

Edited November 1, 2014 by sarnburg

[toothandnail]

I've never had anybody refuse to comply, some will try and push it.

I restate the start position, maybe prompt them further if need be.

[Sarge]

I think it's pretty important to know which sport since each rulebook gives you a different set of tools to deal with issues or perhaps can even specify whether the thing you are observing is even an issue per the rules.

Hopefully the snippets from the correct rulebook will help.

It is indeed important to know the rules, I have the rulebook but my question was more about interpreting said rules and how specifically to deal with a problematic shooter.

In a USPSA environment what would an RSO do if a competitor was gaming on the start? Would they be absolutely by the book at posting #9 suggested (which is definitely my inclination) or would they have some level (no matter how large or small) of tolerance?

I know you don't want to hear what I have to say, but I can't help it.

There are no RSO's in USPSA.

[Hotchkiss]

I think it's pretty important to know which sport since each rulebook gives you a different set of tools to deal with issues or perhaps can even specify whether the thing you are observing is even an issue per the rules.

Hopefully the snippets from the correct rulebook will help.

It is indeed important to know the rules, I have the rulebook but my question was more about interpreting said rules and how specifically to deal with a problematic shooter.

In a USPSA environment what would an RSO do if a competitor was gaming on the start? Would they be absolutely by the book at posting #9 suggested (which is definitely my inclination) or would they have some level (no matter how large or small) of tolerance?

The real question should be what does the rulebook allow.

No.

What the rulebook allows is indeed important.

I am however curious how experienced RSOs would actually deal with this issue? I suspect some would repeat the instruction while giving a visual and if the shooter didn't comply, they would immediately call for the MD. I suspect others would have the shooter unload and go to the end of the squad's line to think about things. Still others might be satisfied if a gamer was "close enough" to keep things moving and/or avoid the emotions. I suspect others could be extremely harsh in yet other ways.

Continuing to reference the rule book in no way addresses this.

[Hotchkiss]

I've never had anybody refuse to comply, some will try and push it.

I restate the start position, maybe prompt them further if need be.

It was my first as well...

At least a dozen others had to be reminded. When they were, they immediately "assumed the position" without further problems. Some (non-gamers) were actually having trouble with the position and they were thankful for taking a bit extra time and showing them what was expected.

[Bkreutz]

Regarding your statement about posting it in "General Match Issues", many people, including myself, look at "View new content" so all the categories get mixed together. At first I thought you were talking about a USPSA match (probably because that's what I shoot and am a RO) I don't think anyone was intentionally argumentative.

[Hotchkiss]

The stage the OP is talking about is 1 Second challenge. Here is a video of someone shooting it:

The primary goal it to shoot the stage fast, like any other steel match stage. A secondary challenge is to shoot all five shots in under 1 second.

With this added challenge competitors will push the WSB to the limits. The latest NSSF rimfire rules describe the alternate starting position fairly well:

7.1 Starting Position

7.1.1 Handgun Participant will start with handgun in hand(s) ready to fire

with the safety disengaged, aiming at a designated object (orange cone) 10

feet down range. Alternate start position may be elbows at side with arms

and gun barrel parallel with ground.

Also

8.1.1 “Shooter Load and Make Ready” – This command signifies the start

of the course of fire. Under the direct supervision of the RSO, the

participant must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the

RSO, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the firearm in accordance with

the written stage briefing. The participant must then assume the required

start position. At this point, the RSO will proceed.

If they do not assume the start position then you wait. Eventually they will figure it out, or ask you why they are not getting the start signal.

As I was writing the reply it occurred to me that the stage may not have been legal as written. I would have to read the WSB to be sure, but the change from NSSF from Ruger also included a rule book change. The alternate start is no longer as tightly defined (ie elbows touching sides) as it was in the past.

Scott

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

In the case I experienced, I repeated the instruction 2-3 final times, they came close to assuming the required start position (there was clearly some gaming still going on because they had pretty much already assumed the correct position in their previous run) and I started them.

In retrospect maybe I shouldn't have. But then what? Send them to the end of the line? Call for the MD?

[2MoreChains]

I guess I have a different definition for "gamers". To me, a gamer is somebody who will try to figure out the best strategy within the limits of the rulebook, and go right up to the edge but not jump off the cliff.

If somebody fails to comply with the WSB's start position, I usually remind them of what the WSB says and wait until they comply before I give them the 'Are you ready, stand-by'. If they want to argue, I'd probably have them ULASC and then call for the RM/MD and let him/her deal with it. No sense in getting into a pissing match. It just messes up the shooter's day and yours. If the RM says they can start that way I'll be happy to run them. If the RM supports my call I'm still happy to run them, but starting the way the RM says they have to.

[Hotchkiss]

I guess I have a different definition for "gamers". To me, a gamer is somebody who will try to figure out the best strategy within the limits of the rulebook, and go right up to the edge but not jump off the cliff.

If somebody fails to comply with the WSB's start position, I usually remind them of what the WSB says and wait until they comply before I give them the 'Are you ready, stand-by'. If they want to argue, I'd probably have them ULASC and then call for the RM/MD and let him/her deal with it. No sense in getting into a pissing match. It just messes up the shooter's day and yours. If the RM says they can start that way I'll be happy to run them. If the RM supports my call I'm still happy to run them, but starting the way the RM says they have to.

Thanks for your opinion -- I really do appreciate it. One of the reasons I finally started the shooter was because they were rattled (not unsafe) and it was clear they weren't going to fare very well on the stage anyway. I do wonder how I would have reacted had I been gamed in this manner by a top level shooter who was in the midst of front-runners on that given day?

[2MoreChains]

This is just my late night musing regarding top level shooters since I can't sleep, but I worked the last two Handgun Nationals in St. George and got to be the RO on the timer for several of the Super Squads. I don't recall any of them trying to push the edge on the start positions. If the WSB said standing erect or facing down range or a specific hand position I seem to recall everyone of them conforming to whatever was required.

However I do recall some interesting interpretations of "hands relaxed at sides" where some guys had their elbows bent to bring their gun hand extremely close to the butt of their gun. I don't recall the classification of those shooters, but suffice to say they weren't on any of the super squads...

I suppose there could be a couple of possibilities at play here. 1) the guys doing that were trying to push the boundaries to see what they could get away with; 2) its an unconscious habit they've formed because their local matches haven't been consistently enforcing the App E2 requirement.

I think you were correct to ensure your shooters were following procedures of the WSB, regardless if it is at a local or major match. This is not directed at you, but I suppose how we go about enforcing the rulebook is going to determine if the RO is just being a guy who is trying to do his job...or being a prick.

As the RM said at this year's RO meeting at Nats: "What's rule #1? Don't be a dick."

[ZackJones]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

[Hotchkiss]

This is just my late night musing regarding top level shooters since I can't sleep, but I worked the last two Handgun Nationals in St. George and got to be the RO on the timer for several of the Super Squads. I don't recall any of them trying to push the edge on the start positions. If the WSB said standing erect or facing down range or a specific hand position I seem to recall everyone of them conforming to whatever was required.

However I do recall some interesting interpretations of "hands relaxed at sides" where some guys had their elbows bent to bring their gun hand extremely close to the butt of their gun. I don't recall the classification of those shooters, but suffice to say they weren't on any of the super squads...

I suppose there could be a couple of possibilities at play here. 1) the guys doing that were trying to push the boundaries to see what they could get away with; 2) its an unconscious habit they've formed because their local matches haven't been consistently enforcing the App E2 requirement.

I think you were correct to ensure your shooters were following procedures of the WSB, regardless if it is at a local or major match. This is not directed at you, but I suppose how we go about enforcing the rulebook is going to determine if the RO is just being a guy who is trying to do his job...or being a prick.

As the RM said at this year's RO meeting at Nats: "What's rule #1? Don't be a dick."

Very interesting comments. It's also been my experience that the fastest shooters don't game. The eventual overall winner wanted his posture "approved" (it was perfect) before he loaded, and then he replicated it for each string.

I watched some Youtube footage taken by a squad of gamers two years ago when the match did not have RSOs (big mistake.) They did a magnificent job of documenting how they cheated. They started by pointing their firearms at the first target rather than the "low ready cone." I'm not sure it changed the outcome of the match but it was blatant and I found it edifying.

When all is said and done there were only two options had the shooter continued as they were. ULASC them, direct them to step out of the box and direct them to review the stage description ("WSB") while the rest of their squad cycled through and then see if they were ready to shoot. If they weren't, tactfully summon the RM. Alternately, ULASC them and immediately summon the RM.

[toothandnail]

I think many rule sets have provisions for people who physically "CAN'T" follow the WSB. IF They can shoot the course safely, they can shoot, however there WILL BE penalities accessed.

I imagine the shooter would have found a way to get in correct start position.

[alma]

Isn't this a game and aren't we all gamers?

[Hotchkiss]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

It's not that simple at all matches.

In some cases getting the RM to the stage is going to take considerable time. No problem with if that's the only way to resolve the issue but if there is another more expeditious way to deal with the issue while still being legal/fair then it needs to be considered. A great deal will depend on the communications skills of the RSO in this case. In some cases certain RSOs will only have the option of calling the RM.

[Hotchkiss]

I think many rule sets have provisions for people who physically "CAN'T" follow the WSB. IF They can shoot the course safely, they can shoot, however there WILL BE penalities accessed.

I imagine the shooter would have found a way to get in correct start position.

The shooter finally assumed the correct position before their first string. They had proven they were able to. The gaming increased and plateaued on their second and third runs. By the time they got to their 4th and 5th strings, they were rattled and seemed to forget they couldn't assume the correct position.

Another competitor shot from a wheelchair. I moved a table to facilitate their shooting (they couldn't have competed otherwise) and dragged an ice chest next to their chair as a low table to hold their gear. When they were done I moved everything back to where it had been for everyone else.

Another competitor asked "would you have a problem with me moving this table?" I said "YEP, now load and make ready."

Edited November 3, 2014 by Hotchkiss

[ZackJones]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

It's not that simple at all matches.

In some cases getting the RM to the stage is going to take considerable time. No problem with if that's the only way to resolve the issue but if there is another more expeditious way to deal with the issue while still being legal/fair then it needs to be considered. A great deal will depend on the communications skills of the RSO in this case. In some cases certain RSOs will only have the option of calling the RM.

For me it is. As soon as the shooter becomes "verbally combative" it's time to get someone else involved.

[MarkCO]

First, that is not a legal RFC stage based on the 2014 rulebook.

Second, the standard start position eliminates the issue, and should be used.

Third, here are a few paragraphs of my Staff Briefing (which I use at the 2013 and 2014 RFC world match). Read the 4th paragraph in particular...

First and foremost, staff is here to provide safety for all persons on the range. Yes, the primary focus of that will be competitor gun handling, but we must also be sure spectators are safe. That means eye and ear protection for everyone, ALWAYS on your stage. If you see spectators, ask them if they have checked in at stats and make sure they have eye and ear protection.

Second, we must enforce the rules fair and equitably. If you have a question, ASK! Unless you are 100% sure, and asked, do not provide your opinion, thoughts or suggestions to competitors! The stage briefing MUST be read verbatim, for every squad with NO ad lib. If a competitor asks you a question related to their stage plans, etc, you may answer it provided you have not issued the “Make Ready” command. NO ad lib!

Range Commands for RFC are ONLY: 1. Shooter Load and Make Ready, 2. Shooter Ready, 3. Standby, 4. “Start Beep”, 5. If you are finished, unload and show clear. 6. If clear, hammer down, and bag firearm. 7. Range is clear. 8. Stop.

Our third job as staff is to provide customer service. We want our competitors to have the absolute best match experience possible. IF you have a competitor give you any hassle, cuss at you, yell at you, I want you to ask them to step back and call me. Do not engage in argument at all. YOU are my most valuable asset for this match, and frankly you don’t get paid enough to get berated for volunteering your time.

One of the fundamental aspects of RFC that is important to NSSF and myself for RFC matches and staff to make sure that competitors enjoy the experience. Even if your cantankerous competitor was Michel, Norris or some other top competitor, the manner in which staff deal with competitors IS making a first impression on others who are trying to learn. Patience is a huge part of that. If you can not be patient with competitors in RFC, please do not work as staff! I am not a patient person myself, but when I grab a scoring pad or timer, I remind myself to go through those paragraphs above...firm but very kind is the way to fly.

A simple demonstration of the proper position during the walk-through should be included in a stage brief where the standard start position can not be used, but I have a hard time understanding why the standard could not be used, so use it. Educate you fellow staff who write the WSBs and get them correct.

Based purely on the OP, if the competitor was slowing down the stage or becoming agitated, I would prefer to have staff have him unload and show clear, move him down in the order and call the MD. As an MD, I would pull him aside for a conversation to figure out what was happening. It may be a misunderstanding, an injury, who knows, but in the starting box is not the place for that kind of dialog.

Hope this helps.

Edited November 3, 2014 by MarkCO

[Hotchkiss]

Thanks for the outline. Now very specifically what would you do in this exact situation where the shooter is not complying with the required start position, is reminded and then directed to do so and become verbally combative saying they cannot assume the position when it's very clear they can? What then?

Interesting thread because we are going to start shooting NSSF matches at our club in January. Dealing with the above situation is simple. After requesting the shooter assume the start position and they can't comply and state they can't assume it then I would have proceeded as follows:

Unload and show clear and have them bag it.

Call out on the radio: Range master to stage XXX.

It's my job as an RO to run shooters through the stage and do so in a safe efficient manner. It's not my job to argue with a shooter regarding his ability, or lack thereof, in assuming the start position. The RM gets the big bucks for dealing with this problem so I would let the RM deal with it.

It's not that simple at all matches.

In some cases getting the RM to the stage is going to take considerable time. No problem with if that's the only way to resolve the issue but if there is another more expeditious way to deal with the issue while still being legal/fair then it needs to be considered. A great deal will depend on the communications skills of the RSO in this case. In some cases certain RSOs will only have the option of calling the RM.

For me it is. As soon as the shooter becomes "verbally combative" it's time to get someone else involved.

It might be simple for you to reach that decision to summon the RM, but it's not always so simple to get a RM to a specific stage.