Wakal Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Have they fixed their scoring glitch, and will be "able" to score pistol/major rifle/minor on the same stage without having to do the cheezy work-around of blocking off everything but the A-Zone? I hear that the club running the USPSA Texas State 3-Gun Championship figured out how to score that properly almost three years ago Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 I heard they could do it quickly and correctly too.-----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 The last time I brought up the san angelo scoreing to mike voigt, I was told " I don't want to hear anymore about the san angelo scoreing" I guess if it's not their idea, it's not worth a damn, even if it works better than anything they have come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 What in the Sam Hill is San Angelo scoreing? Damn Texans! God Bless America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gl Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 DAMN TEXANS!!!!!?????? Those are fightin' words!!! LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 San Angelo scoring is just awarding appropriate points for all hits (including appropriate points for hits with weapons of different power factor). It also doesn't include proscriptive stage descriptions (e.g. "engage these targets with your pistol and those targets with your rifle") or artificial means such as cutting out everything except the A-zone. The proper way to score multi-gun stages and matches would be to have a set of rules that allowed it and to have a scoring program that supported it. Since we don't have a scoring program that even recognizes all of the divisions in 3-gun that isn't possible. I guess the USPSA "powers that be" don't find it sufficiently important to support things the membership wants/needs/demands. In the meantime...it is possible to score multi-gun stages and matches correctly with a few "work-arounds". I appreciate the "quickly and accurately" comments, but for the past couple of years I've just been klugeing around the problems with EZWinscore. I will continue to do so until USPSA throws me out (and then I'll probably continue in another venue). I will also point out that "quickly and accurately" only occurs in San Angelo in the afternoon because the scorekeeper sometimes oversleeps. Several of us begged the USPSA BOD not to pass the "provisional" 3-gun rules because they forbid correct, accurate and reasonable scoring and stage design for multi-gun stages. Several of us also suggested wording changes that would allow us to continue scoring stages as we have done for several years without altering the intent of the rules. We were thoroughly ignored. The Texas State 3-Gun Championship will continue to include REAL multi-gun stages. The stage descriptions will still allow shooters to decide which weapon to use for various targets. Scoring will still be correct for power factor for each hit. One of the goals of the match staff is that each stage description is "engage all targets as they become visible". Come on down. It will be LOTS of fun. Kurt, I'll be glad to list your USPSA number as "pending" and enter your scores in the match. If any other scorekeepers out there want to discuss my work-arounds and kluges, let me know. I'll be glad to share. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGDM Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Kelly, Thanks for the description of the San Angelo scoring, I fully support this method of scoring...it makes sense! You would think that an organization with a BOD would encourage input from members that are trying to enhance said organization. I know there are many frustrations out there and perhaps one day this will be settled. Of course, you can't please everyone, but you attempt to please the masses. Maybe we, the shooters, should all sit down and come to an acceptable aggreement on the scoring system for USPSA 3-Gun and present 2-3 COA's to the BOD. I for one, along with many others that I have spoken with over the years, prefer the scoring method we use at Kyle's match and it sounds pretty close to your method. I attempt to avoid USPSA 3-Gun cause I got snake bit a couple years ago at the Nationals and I only need to get bit once! However, I am going to make a noble attempt to come and shoot the Texas 3-Gun this year, I hear it is a Hoot. Well, if I am not deployed, again. A fellow Texan. v/r Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 How are rifle-vs-pistol paper targets differentiated? Thinking off the top of my head, it would be easy to see a .223 hole in the C-zone and call '3 points' to the scorekeeper, and '4 points', were it a .45 hole, but what do you do with annoying folks that shoot goofy things like a Mech-Tech wherein the holes are the same? (ignoring of course the essential silliness of different point values for the exact same bullet at the same velocity scoring differently depending solely on the launching tube) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The only big bugaboo I see in recognizing different PF rated firearms on unsegregated paper targets within a given stage is the possibility that a competitor may obliterate previous hits when adding larger diameter holes to a target that already has some smaller diameter ones (i.e.; re-engaging with pistol after putting some AR rounds on a given target). Solve this and you can have free form stages. Otherwise some target segregation is going to be required to prevent losing a competitors scoring hits in this manner. The RO can only be expected to keep track of so much and safety is number one, not what holes the shooter just made. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 The only time I think that would be a problem is if you could erase two hits with one shot. Otherwise the pistol shot score will be equivalent to or better than the rifle score (excepting again the masochists shooting Major rifle and Minor pistol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 223 hole is minor, anything else is major unless he is declareing minor in pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Otherwise the pistol shot score will be equivalent to or better than the rifle score True, but it would not be the “correct” score. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Whoa doggies, left-field hypotheticals with no bearing or relevance to the discussion at hand...great fun! To answer: If you shoot two C-zone hits with a .223, then come back in and hit two C-zone hits with a major-.40, the major C's would superceed the minor C's, no matter if you exactly hit the same magic spot ("back...and to the right...") or not. BEST TWO HITS ON PAPER. Geez, try another straw man...maybe with real straw this time... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Nobody likes my same-caliber rifle/pistol strawman so how about this one: Shooter shoots an 'upper-A/B zone only' target with rifle. 1 A, 1 miss.. calls the miss leaving the position. A while later in the stage pulls out the ol .45 and plugs another A on there. Right over (and thus erasing) the .223 hole. "It's a double!" "Why with all this straw I could make a house!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Git along with your little doggie‘s, obliterated hits of a different caliber are pretty much the same as pass through hits in that they should not be allowed to happen in the first place. Which is exactly one of the “several“ good reasons for not allowing multiple calibers/PF’s on the same piece of paper (in USPSA scoring rules anyway). Heck, the MGM3G, RM3G and SMM3G matches all specify which target, which weapon engagement order and they all score IMG time+, what‘s the big hoohaw about being able to shoot anything with anything about anyway? -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 shred, nope, not a double, you can only score whats there, still alpha/ mike, just like a perfect double, its worth a nickle.------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 shred, nope, not a double, you can only score whats there, still alpha/ mike, just like a perfect double, its worth a nickle.------Larry So how do we score a target with 4 .38-size holes on it, one A, one B, one C & one D? The shooter shot at it twice with a 38 open gun (Major) and twice with a 38 super Mech-Tech rifle (Minor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 shred, right back to basics, best two on paper, alpha/bravo (major), some things ain't right, they just are.----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 So how do we score a target with 4 .38-size holes on it, one A, one B, one C & one D?The shooter shot at it twice with a 38 open gun (Major) and twice with a 38 super Mech-Tech rifle (Minor) EggsAckerly! You either have to disallow it, or live with it like Larry says. But it still ain’t “right“. My answer would be one A and one minor B as the rifle engaged it first so it’s PF applies no matter what happens after it has already been engaged (neutralized) at less than major PF. But there is still no hard and fast way so that’s why it isn’t supposed to be allowed to happen. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 George, I'm not happy with my answer on this either but I think its better than throwing the PF away by blacking out everthing but the A zone. I don't think Mccoys deal is perfect but given a choice between his deal and what we had at the 3 gun nats last year I think I have to go with Mccoy. I also think USPSA 3 gun has more problems than scoring, we may just have to decide that this is a diffrent kind of animal and redo the whole 3 gun deal.----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Hi Larry, Yeah, even though I am still on the fence about trying to make USPSA 3 gun rules work for multi-gun (somehow), I have to admit that USPSA scoring rules and multi-gun stages are a lot like oil and water, not a good mix. Even though we use the USPSA rule and scoring structure at our local multi-gun matches, we adapt, improvise and overcome a whole lot to get the type of shooting we want. We have been shooting multi-gun in occasional flagrant disregard for USPSA practices for many, many moons now. None of the multi-gun matches we run could ever be USPSA sanctioned ;-) We’re OK with that. But we still lean on the Sedro Wooley rulebooks and software as available tools that can be made to do the job. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Mr. McCoy: I had a blast last year and wouldn't miss it for the world. I will be there!! When is it and when do you want me to send in the entry?? Kurt M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 What is a mech-tech & no body that is trying to win a match that is serious about shooting is going to try & hit 300 yd. steel with one anyway. Have never seen one in a match so it probley is not going to be a issue anyway at a state match in scoreing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 At our local matches we only can go to 50 or so yards. The M-T works excellent for that. 3" at 100 yds is about as good as it gets.. Besides, you should recognize at least half of mine.. the STI half at least I think you built it, and I know you've been at 3-gun matches I shot it at. But what's the point of a scoring system that only works at big matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ap3 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Great debate. When you read the provisional multi-gun rules the last page request input from the membership to make these rules work. No doubt multi-gun is the most fun, and I believe the BOD is sincere in trying to make 3gun closer to this type of competition. They are just as stumped as we are as to how to resolve the scoring issue relative to power factor. My suggestion would be to change the USPSA divisions to OPEN, TACTICAL, HEAVY METAL. Leave HEAVY METAL has the only class that requires major power factor, so you eliminate the difference in power factor between rfle and pistol. For example, how many times do you shoot a tactical 3gun match and a 9MM Glock is the handgun of choice for your fellow competitior, while your shooting a 40. I think we(USPSA) are trying to hard to make 3 guns fit the scoring we are used to for one gun. To me, 3 gun is a differnt kind of shooting sport. Just a thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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