APEX Hammers & Extended Firing Pin

[girphoto]

Hello All

Although I am new to this site, I am not new to guns, competition or building custom guns.

I build Glocks for competition and Glock race guns.

Since I blew out my knees...I now compete in SASS (Cowboy Action) and Steel Challenge in the Senior category.

I love my Autos, but I have decided to go back to shooting Revolvers.

I had a 67-5 in the safe and decided to dust it off.........

I changed the Springs with a Jerry Miculek spring kit......Cut the strain screw....removed the rear sight and replace it with a C-More RTS-2.

The cylinder was sent to TK Industries to be cut for moon clips and had Tom send me 30 moon clips for 38 Spl.

We load the major amount of Cowboy Ammo for competition in the country and loaded a round for my 67-5 that works just fine..

Trigger is about 7.5#....not bad

So Since I am a Steel Challenge competitor in rimfire (S&W 41) Center fire (Custom 2011 38 Super Major) I decided to also enter Revolver for 2015.

I liked the 9mm "l" frame 986 that came out and I was able to get on a month ago.

Now, I know that all you love the 929 and I can understand what, But I like the "L" Frame and the 5" barrel. I also change the springs to a Michlek set. did a little work on the strain screw but can not get the gun where I would like it.

Today, I ordered the APEX competition firing pin and Competition Hammer.

Thanks for reading the intro.... To the question

How do the spring that come with the New Hammer compare to the Miculek rebound spring...Lighter, heaver, the same?

I will replace the Firing pin, Hammer and rebound spring (Spring I think)

As per an earlier post, I have already removed the lock system and waiting for the Plug to come in..

Any info/advice that can be offered would be appreciated.

Thanks

Gary

[Gregg K]

One of the springs that come with the hammer is way to light for me. I like a better reset than the one spring is capable of, it may work for slow fire but not suitable for any speed shooting IMHO. The other spring seems good to use. Depending on what spring you got with Jerry's kit you will just have to try both to see what meets your preference. Jerry has changed springs at least once that I know of in his kit.

[MWP]

The apex kit comes with 2 rebound springs, a .160 and .165. The .160 being the lighter of the two, both are significantly lighter than the JM.

Start with the .160, and if you are short stroking in live fire, go to the .165. The .165 is capable of returning the trigger for .17 splits.

I use a .160 in my steel challenge gun, because splits are rarely fast enough to short stroke the gun. .165 in my USPSA gun.

[bountyhunter]

For what it's worth, I will speak the blasphemy: when Is et up a SW revo for light DA pull, I have a home made mandrel bend thing I use to curve the spring. I reduce spring force until I get a misfire on DA pull with whatever ammo is to be used, then increase it maybe 15% above that level. Even more blasphemous: I set the curve so I get the mainspring force I want when the strain screw is about 1/4 turn out from all the way in and I use blue loctite to hold it in place. That gives me a shade of extra spring I can turn in if needed while shooting if some stiff ammo shows up.

For the rebound spring: the correct force there depends on mainspring because the RB spring has to move the hammer back against the mainspring to reset. I use the minimum RB spring that gives good trigger reset and usually cut the spring so I can dial it in. What constitutes a "good trigger return" is obviously subjective. That means the mainspring and RB go as a set for a given gun.

I realize cutting coils springs and bending leaf springs is not stylish but it beats having a mountain of spare springs.

YMMV

Edited October 8, 2014 by bountyhunter

[girphoto]

Thanks for the quick response...I will report back after I get the parts this week and install and test.

Gary

[MWP]

Girphoto, have you done any action work on the gun? JM sells a great video for your first time. Way more important that swapping parts.

[girphoto]

HI MWP

No action work until the APEX parts com in this week...

My associate is one of the best custom Cowboy revolver smith's and he will help out with the work on the 986.

Will also develop a load for the gun (just got in 10,000 Federal primers). So should be ready to go shortly..

Thanks

Gary

[girphoto]

MWP

ok, went back to review the JM video...looks interesting and ordered it.....

Thanks Again

Gary

[girphoto]

Hi All

Once again, Thanks for the infer so far......

To give an update on my 986 (7 shot 9mm) I have change the firing pin to an APEX extended competition firing pin , next I change the hammer to an APEX Evolution IV L-Frame hammer (had to take down the sear a little , the locking system as you know is out and I still have the JM kit in the gun. Still using the JM rebound spring and now have the 986 at a firm 7 #.

My next step is to turn one of our 1050 presses back to 9mm from 40 and start to work on a load with Federal primers....

I think that we can get the trigger down in the 6's # or below..

My question, for those of you who have installed the Apex Hammer, Which spring did you use and did you cut it down...It is longer than the JM spring.

Using a set of JM grips until the Rubber no finger groove BIG BUTT grips come in.

Thanks in advance for the info and I have attached a photo of my 986 to date

[MWP]

Don't cut the apex springs, they are ready to go just like they are. Start with the .160, if you can outrun/short stroke it, go to the .165.

You should be able to go much lower if your action is all smoothed up.

[girphoto]

Hi MWP

Just wanted to say Thanks.........

Took your advice and wound up using the APEX .165 rebound spring...

did some more tuning cut the strain screw and have a nice smooth trigger just around 6#'s (or a little less) with the load I did on a 1050 with Federal Primers.

Gary

[MWP]

Not a problem Gary, 6ish is about where my guns are too, nothing worse than a light strike in the middle of a match.

[girphoto]

Hi MWP

Did you remove the gun lock when you (or APEX) installed the APEX competition hammer?

If you did, it creates a space and did you have to Shim or place a spaces inlace of the lock system,.

I am still waiting for my "Plugs" so I am not sure if the back side of the plug takes up that space

Thanks

Gary

[MWP]

For me, Apex has done both. Deactivated the lock, but left it in place, and removed everything except the key slot. Doesn't seem to affect the hammer at all. The guns I do myself, I don't even deactivate the lock.

I believe there are several different opinions on this, and maybe a few other guys will chime in here, but I haven't had any issues with the locks intact.

[Carmoney]

You can take out the IL without needing any kind of shim or spacer.

Actually, the benefit of the Apex hammer over simply cutting a stock hammer is that Randy designed it to allow the IL to remain functional. This is an issue for those in shooting disciplines which require all factory safety-related mechanisms to remain fully functional.

[girphoto]

Thanks

At this point in my life I am shooting Steel Challenge and Cowboy (needless to say I do not use a 986 or like for cowboy shooting)

But we did rewove the lock system, and it was replaced with an APEX hammer (I also replace the firing pin to an extended APEX firing pin).

The gun is running smooth with the .0165 rebound spring and a JM hammer spring.. at about 6# pull.

Will be loading today and taking it to the range this weekend .

I will set up a small steel stage (outdoors) and give it a run through (about 200 rds).

Thanks

Gary

[girphoto]

Hi All

So a little further upgrading....I had Hogue make a set of modified Big Butt grips for me. I liked the rubber grip but it was a little to fat, so they made it thinner, removed the finger groves, kept it smooth and reduced the butt cap to a smaller cap. My hands now fit nicely around the grips and we will test out Sunday ( A really nice bunch of folks at Hugue).

As you can also see, I have my 200 rds of practice ammo all set with Federal primers and sitting in my $2.29 ammo box from Home Depot (Also have one for my 38Spl in moon clips).

The last modification that I will make is the rear sight (won't be in until Monday) a friend of mine is the USA distributer for LPA sights and I ordered a TXT0107 rear to go with my HiViz FO Front.

Once this is all done and tested, I will start to work on the internals of my 67-5 which is set up with a C-More RTS2 rear red dot and currently has a JM hammer & rebound spring inside.

This will also get an APEX Hammer & Apex Extended Firing Pin.

If anyone has a favorite 9mm load for Steel Challenge, I am all ears (or in this case eyes)

Thanks

Gary

[girphoto]

Hi All

So after going through 200 rds. Still having a few light hits.

Q- has anyone used the stock hammer spring , tuned of course. I understand that these are Wolf springs.

I put in a JM spring with a cut and tuned strain screw.

Any comments would be great.

Thanks

Gary

[Toolguy]

I use the old stock S&W mainspring with my own rebound spring. There are 2 kinds of springs from the factory now, the tapered solid one and the newer "Power Rib" that is a flat piece with a raised rib going up the middle. Everyone has their own favorite, I like the old style better. The old ones vary a little from one spring to the next, so you have to work with them accordingly.

[PatJones]

I too use the old style tapered spring. I bend the top of the spring, the part containing the hook, down at about a 30° angle. This makes the overall length shorter. This is important to prevent knuckling when you reduce the length of the tension screw. I also arch it slightly after its in the gun.

I measure the tension on the hammer by hooking a trigger pull gauge in the little notch formed by the bottom of the flat pad where the hammer hits the hiring pin. I pull the hammer back with the gauge parallel with the barrel. At the midway point of its travel, the tension on the hammer measures 2 7/8 pounds. All other tuning is done by polishing the action and playing with rebound springs.

The hammers with the fixed firing pins are measured in the same manner, but you hook under the hammer nose. This is higher up on the hammer so the numbers are different. I've not worked on enough of these to have a firm number.

[girphoto]

Thanks....

Toolguy & PatJones

I will check the tension on the hammer hitting the firing pin and I am sure it was around 2 1/2 #.

I also like the Flat springs and have not worked with the Power Rib WOLF spring that came with the 986.

In talking to Wolf, they said that S&W had purchased the reduced power hammer spring..but that are looking into retooling the springs for S&W. It should be about 2 mtgs before that have the ready.

Thanks Again

Gary

[Toolguy]

Usually 40 ounces on the hammer nose ones or you can hook in the same place as the new hammer and use the same numbers. I have had to go up to 44 ounce on some guns and as low as 36 ounce on others. For the FP in the frame usually around 56 ounces. Each gun and combination of parts is an individual entity.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Toolguy

[girphoto]

Thanks

All apart and back together. Now working on the money. Had a few spots that needed to be polished. Runs nice and smooth at 6 1/2 # trigger.

Tested and now ready to go.

LPA sight in today. At the range on Wednesday to sight in and a club Steel Challenge match on Sunday.

Once again thanks to all that helped out.

Gary

[1911Prof]

I need some help, I am also new to revolvers and have a little problem with my Apex hammer that I just received. I was hoping to drop in but it is not quite working out that way. It appears that the sear is a little too long and there is not enough space between the sear and the hammer to let the trigger reset (see picture). My question is this something that I should be taking care of by stoning the edge of the sear to permit more space for the trigger, or should I contact Apex or a gunsmith. I am not sure if the leading edge of the sear is a critical surface or not

[bountyhunter]

If you mean the lower edge of the DA sear (the black piece that is spring loaded on the front of the hammer). Yes, that is a critical fit. The DA sear has to be fitted precisely so that the trigger pull is smooth and there is a perfect handoff between the two parts of the trigger that rotate the hammer.

It looks to me like the end of the sear has been left long to allow for fitting? I have never bought one of these hammers but it doesn't look like a drop in fit.

Edited December 16, 2014 by bountyhunter