Critique our rules.

[LoganbillJ]

Looking for some input on the rules we have established for a match we will be hosting next year.

Thanks!

ETA: Point out if there is anything missing. We want them to be right the first time. It does look like I need to define start positions though.

Match Rules.pdf

Edited September 16, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[bishop414]

I stopped when a 180 violation is not a match DQ. Good luck with your match.

[LoganbillJ]

Thus the reason for the critique.

180 Violation changed from stage to match DQ. (edited in OP)

Edited September 16, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[Outsydlooknin75]

So if I stage DQ I'm just going to get max time and no penalties. If you are doing a total time match it might be in my best interest on certain stages just to take a stage dq

[DocMedic]

So is the Shooter penalized or do they get a Re-shoot if the RO manuplates the firearm to show the shooter that the firearm was not placed on safe?

Edited September 16, 2014 by DocMedic

[LoganbillJ]

So if I stage DQ I'm just going to get max time and no penalties. If you are doing a total time match it might be in my best interest on certain stages just to take a stage dq

Par time set at 180 seconds. Max time on a stage is 300 seconds, that is 180 plus penalties. Stage dq is 300 seconds. Outlined under scoring.

Edited September 16, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[LoganbillJ]

So is the Shooter penalized or do they get a Re-shoot if the RO manuplates the firearm to show the shooter that the firearm was not placed on safe?

Would you mind expanding on this? Are you asking if the RO touches the firearm in anyway after it is dumped is the shooter penalized or reshoot?

[DocMedic]

Playing devil's advocate but here’s a example.

Shooter finish a COF, Shooter goes too abandon firearm to show clear. But before the shooter can touch their firearm, the RO touches the firearm to show the shooter that the firearm was abandon not on safe. Does the shooter get the 60 sec penalty, or does he Get a RE-Shoot as there is no longer a way to prove that the shooter had abandon the firearm on safe due to RO interference?

Also another rule that is confusing, is under Heavy Metal division it states the Magazine cannot have to capacity to hold more then 20rnds, so would running Magpul 25rnd mags downloaded to 20 be illegal, or if a person bought a extended floor plate for their mags that increase capacity and height not be allowed?

Edited September 16, 2014 by DocMedic

[LoganbillJ]

I will tell you what I have done as the scoring RO in the past. And it will most likely be handled the same way at our match.

For example: Shooter abandons rifle in barrel and proceeds through the COF. Scoring RO walks up to the barrel after CRO and shooter have moved on. RO glances in barrel to check and ensure safety is engaged. If view is obscured(not common for rifle but can be for shotgun) RO will simply roll the gun to view the safety. If it is engaged, no problem. If safety is off, the scoring RO will stay beside barrel until shooter is finished. Shooter will then go to barrel and either show a clear gun with safety off or a hot gun with safety off. If the gun is hot the shooter will receive the penalty.

The RO shall not touch the abandoned gun to check for safety other than to grasp the buttstock and roll the gun. Not sure if that makes sense or not as far as the RO handling it. I personally have never seen a long gun come off safe due to an RO handling a gun to check the safety.

As for the heavy capacity rule we are still kicking it around as to whether or not to cap it at 20. If we do run with the 20 rd limit it will be just like tac ops and shotguns. Available capacity can be any amount, loaded count must be 20 or less. Competitor found with more than 20 rds in a mag will be subject to stage DQ.

Edited September 16, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[RiggerJJ]

I would prefer keeping the 20 round limit on rifle in HM, no mag cap limit so the 25s can be used downloaded to 20. There are pistols that hold more than 10 rounds, (Para 14/45 for example) that would have to be downloaded to 10, no reason not to allow 25s downloaded to 20. allowing unlimited in the HM rifle pretty much kills the M1a from being competitive.

so use 6.5.1.3 tailored to the rifle, IE; "No more than 20 rounds allowed in any magazine at any time."

jmho

jj

[RiggerJJ]

Oh yea, good show for keeping the HO division pure with Pump 12 gauge, 45 pistol, and scoped 308 rifle!

[LoganbillJ]

I talked to a few local guys who shoot heavy and they insisted on it staying pure.

[1chota]

I don't agree with capping the HM mags at 20. What is the reason? There used to be only 20 rounders available. Now there are 25 rounders available. Why not allow them?

[RiggerJJ]

I don't agree with capping the HM mags at 20. What is the reason? There used to be only 20 rounders available. Now there are 25 rounders available. Why not allow them?

show me a 25 round M1a mag...

[Benelli Chick]

If there are 20 targets on a stage and someone misses all of them AND times out, they get 380 sec. Longer than stage DQ. You should try to make a stage DQ zero points and not a time, for pts per stage.

[1chota]

I believe C-Products makes one. I have seen them at gunshows. caveat: shoot a JP and don't worry about nuthin.

and to go back to my original statement: they weren't being made until just recently.

we also used to have to shoot a 1911. so...............

Edited September 16, 2014 by 1chota

[LoganbillJ]

If there are 20 targets on a stage and someone misses all of them AND times out, they get 380 sec. Longer than stage DQ. You should try to make a stage DQ zero points and not a time, for pts per stage.

Max time regardless of penalties and timeout is 300 sec. Unless of course the general consensus is let the shooter eat all penalties on top of time out. Either way it won't affect the top 75% of shooters.

[Guest]

Just an FYI - Check-mate makes 25 round M1A mags.

[Stlhead]

the Checkmate 25's run in my M-14 just like the rest of the checkmate mags, the real reason that HM should stay 20 rounds loaded in the rifle is the same as reason that we use a pump a 10 round .45 and real irons. Because it is the toughest division and thats the way we like it. I would even favor a return to 8 rounds in the pistol because then I don't have to use those stupid long mags.

I hope you actually get some HM shooters at your match.

[RiggerJJ]

the Checkmate 25's run in my M-14 just like the rest of the checkmate mags, the real reason that HM should stay 20 rounds loaded in the rifle is the same as reason that we use a pump a 10 round .45 and real irons. Because it is the toughest division and thats the way we like it. I would even favor a return to 8 rounds in the pistol because then I don't have to use those stupid long mags.

I hope you actually get some HM shooters at your match.

that was my default answer once somebody came up with a M1a 25 rounder...

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Alright.....I'm not gonna make any friends here:

1: Three Divisions (with concessions).

A:Tactial/TacOps. Traditional Tacops division, with one shot on paper for 45 and 308 and no mag cap limits.

B:Limited. Exactly like TacOps division, same concessions.

C:Cheater Division. Open with same concessions.

Heavy Divisions are entirely under shot and forgotten divisions for multiple reasons. (Here comes the storm of hate.....) <---I like shooting HTO, but wont this year or likely next year.

2: 30 sec penalty for abandoning a 1911/2011 with a working grip safety. Non-working/pinned grip safety, stage DQ. Dropped loaded gun, match DQ. Offer option to leave chamber empty to competitors if they like....dropped gun with empty chamber = stage DQ if other rules are not broken....ie, 180 rule.

3: 180/ND/AD/unsportsmanlike/cheating/bullet leaving range.....match DQ

4: Half Day format.

5: Time-Plus scoring....added penalty time for pistol/slug targets over 40 yards, rifle targets over 200 yards, and specialty targets.

6: 100 pt stages...all stage times for a good shooter (not necessarily a top 10 finisher) need to be within 10-15 seconds of their average stage time in order for it to work well. This needs to be based on a Tac shooter, not an open shooter who doesnt have to reload shotgun.

7: Only vertical dump barrels that are secured and cannot tip over and horizontal tables / slanted barrels for staging. Paint the rims of all dump barrels with bright colored paint. No confusion with abandoning a firearm in the wrong place. ANY dump barrel can be used for ANY gun in a COF (would need dump buckets for pistols in them all), once abandoned it can't be retrieved, no abandoning two guns in one barrel. Have more than enough dump barrels on each stage to have options as to how far you want to go before dumping a gun.

8: Downhill stage designs when possible...scoring RO confirms safe abandonment and clears guns muzzle down in barrels, scoring behind the shooter. Leave any FTN paper or steel alone / untouched for the shooter to see on their way back, everything else should be reset and pasted when the shooter is walking back to pick up cleared firearms.

9: Loaded gun starts. Exceptions would include prone/rooftop with holstered pistol, a specific challenge of starting with a completely empty gun that needs to be loaded on the clock, or the shooter exercising the option of starting with an empty chamber. Cruiser ready makes little sense to me.......I would either have a loaded gun I'm going to pick up and shoot, or an unloaded gun that I need to insert a mag or load a tube and then shoot. My CCW, home defense guns,....all are loaded and hot. The shotguns, rifles, and pistols in my safe all have empty chambers, no mags, and empty shotgun tubes.

10: Paint all targets fresh for each squad, or start grey and never paint. I personally would talk to limited shooters like James Casanova as to the best methods for painting targets/stands to make them workable for every shooter. Backers for targets would be great to help with visibility, white corrugated plastic behind black targets would work well as long as it is angled to minimize dirt sticking on it. Orange/White paint on the ground like 3GN uses to show how the target should be squared is an excellent idea!

[Benelli Chick]

If there are 20 targets on a stage and someone misses all of them AND times out, they get 380 sec. Longer than stage DQ. You should try to make a stage DQ zero points and not a time, for pts per stage.

Max time regardless of penalties and timeout is 300 sec. Unless of course the general consensus is let the shooter eat all penalties on top of time out. Either way it won't affect the top 75% of shooters.

Then a stage DQ is no penalty worse than a broken gun, or bad shooting...

Just saying...

[LoganbillJ]

If there are 20 targets on a stage and someone misses all of them AND times out, they get 380 sec. Longer than stage DQ. You should try to make a stage DQ zero points and not a time, for pts per stage.

Max time regardless of penalties and timeout is 300 sec. Unless of course the general consensus is let the shooter eat all penalties on top of time out. Either way it won't affect the top 75% of shooters.

Then a stage DQ is no penalty worse than a broken gun, or bad shooting...

Just saying...

Good point.

600 sec? More appropriate or too much?

Edited September 17, 2014 by LoganbillJ

[Benelli Chick]

If there are 20 targets on a stage and someone misses all of them AND times out, they get 380 sec. Longer than stage DQ. You should try to make a stage DQ zero points and not a time, for pts per stage.

Max time regardless of penalties and timeout is 300 sec. Unless of course the general consensus is let the shooter eat all penalties on top of time out. Either way it won't affect the top 75% of shooters.

Then a stage DQ is no penalty worse than a broken gun, or bad shooting...

Just saying...

Good point. 600 sec. More appropriate?

If you're doing points per stage, I think that making a Did not Fire or DQ worth zero points is more appropriate. If total time with no points per stage, then 600 seconds would be a solid crash and burn...but then 300 should be the most you can get on a stage with a broken gun or what have you... Just depends on how you plan to score it.

[zodiac]

I would make safety violations non arbitrary, RO's DQs are final and strike any notion of RO interference for ever touching a shooter's firearm.