Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 A while ago I asked the folks at HQ about this and they said they were not aware of anything in the works ..... Anyone out there besides me interested in a classification system for the rimfire division of Steel Challenge? The hard work as already been accomplished with the creation of the centerfire system. All that would really be needed for as rimfire classification is to define adjusted times for each classification since they should be lower than that for centerfire. I would think a reasonable place to start is to take the times of the top 10 competitors from the Nationals the last year or two and use that to set what the max time for a GM classification should be and then simply decrement up in time internals similar to what they do for centerfire ... I know, at least in my local area, there are many matches where we get many more rimfire competitors than centerfire or folks who shoot 2 guns. Having the ability to receive a classification in rimfire as well as centerfire can only be seen as a good thing for growing the sport .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottlep Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 There was actually discussion a few months back and there was mention of it in the USPSA BOD meeting notes about adding rimfire pistol/rifle to the classification system. I believe there has also been discussion about separating all of the divisions so the classifications are more logical. Much like in USPSA where Open is classified against other Open shooters, Limited vs Limited. etc. If you dig through the USPSA BOD meeting minutes from some time back in the spring you might find it. I'll post the link if I can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) We have several folks at my club that would like to see Rimfire have its own classification. Several shooters have showed an interest in shooting Rimfire, but when they found out there is no classification for Rimfire, they lost interest. Edited August 25, 2014 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 That's encouraging ... I need to find out if anything has been planned or done since ... A classification system is n easy way to generate interest .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Maybe I missed it but I couldn't find anything about it in any of the mtg meetings for this year and the Board only voted in Dec 13 to combine SCSA with USPSA so I doubt it could be before then .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danjordan78 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I think that's a great idea! Maybe if someone works up a full proposal with the numbers all worked out (sounds like Nimitz has a good start) the BOD might be willing to look at it. People like ready made solutions! Really like the idea of different classifications for each division, both rimfire and centerfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I replied to your thread on USPSA forum. I'm all for it. I would also support classifications by division for centerfire but I can live with what we have now for centerfire. FWIW here's a link the the discussion about new classification system: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188033 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Zack, thx for the link. I'll PM Flex to see if he can provide an update ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster mcbee Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 My daughter and I have both started shooting rimfire. She is petite and just learning to shoot, so rimfire works well for her. She also joined USPSA just so she could get classified, and was disappointed to learn there wasn't a classification for rimfire. We both would be thrilled with a rimfire classification system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 I talked with Flex earlier today and he was going to check on the status of the classification system in Steel Challenge. Back in Dec 13 the USPSA President brought up the idea of SC have a classification system by division like USPSA and also include rimfire so Flex was going to see what has happened since then ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrispies Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Curious of any updates on this? A little over a year ago I asked SCSA about making rimfire "legit"and didn't get a very encouraging response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Curious of any updates on this? A little over a year ago I asked SCSA about making rimfire "legit"and didn't get a very encouraging response. It was an agenda item for the last in-person BoD meeting (13-14 Sep) but the minutes haven't been posted yet so no one knows what was said. There is no reason USPSA couldn't come up with a classification system for rimfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 when I talked with Flex he said there had been a discussion earlier in the year about updating the classification system to make it more USPSA-like so that there were division classifications so that a C class production shooter was not competing against an A class open shooter like now. They were also talking about including the rimfire div as well ... I will talk with Flex again after the minutes are posted if we don't get a good answer ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 There is enough data to make classification by division a realty. We just need for HQ to do it. I really like the simple classification system we have now. You know exactly what you need to do to advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 There is enough data to make classification by division a realty. We just need for HQ to do it. I really like the simple classification system we have now. You know exactly what you need to do to advance. I agree, no hidden High Hit Factors and you can easily track your times on each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 Yeah, SC is much easier to develop a classification system since it's just time. Especially since we already have what is probably the open division already created. Adjusting times for the other categories like limited or production shouldn't be that hard. For example, if you take all the SC times from USPSA C class Production shooters you can probably use that as the basis for the C class times for Steel Challenge since there are probably not too many C class Production shooters in USPSA who could put down A class times competing in Production in Steel Challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 The way I'd go it, at least initially, is to take the stage winning times from the world shoot this year and use those as the "goal" time (or whatever you want to call it). Using that as the baseline you could calculate times each class. Take a look at the attachment. I threw some numbers together for Production, RFPO and RFPI using the times from the world shoot for smoke and hope. Obviously we'd want to look at things for all 6 stages that count towards classification but at this this gives us some numbers to talk about. The first and last column are obvious what they are . The second column is the current aggregate times for each classification level. The 3rd column is a multiplier determined by taking the class time divided by the GM time so 75/65 = 1.15 when rounded to two decimal places. The 4th column shows the stage winning time for that division from the world shoot and then possible times for each class based on that stage winning time. I haven't put too much thought into it but at least it's one possible way to come up with classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Are the decimals one digit off? It is either that or I just don't understand it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 hmmmm .... I don't know if I'd take just the winning time from the WS as the basis. There are plenty of GMs who really can't compete with the likes of Max so maybe that standard is a little high. If you take say the average of all the GMs from one division to use as a starting point the range might be a little more realistic. What we don't want to have happen is end up with what we have on some classifiers where the HHF is so unrealistic that even good shooters have trouble making the times. However, in the end I'd be happy with any classification system vice none ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Are the decimals one digit off? It is either that or I just don't understand it... I don't think so. I'll try to explain it differently looking at the production set of data. 65 is the baseline value. If you can shoot all 6 classification stages in 65 seconds or less you're a steel GM. 75 to 66 seconds makes you a steel master and so forth. The way I came with the 1.15 numbers as follows. 75/65 = 1.15 meaning 75 seconds is 1.15 times greater than 65. Another way of looking at it is a master class shooter could 1.15 times slower than a GM. I then calculated the values for the other classes. Hopefully it makes more sense now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 hmmmm .... I don't know if I'd take just the winning time from the WS as the basis. I probably wouldn't either but that was data I had readily available. You could base it off of world records for each division but I don't know if USPSA has any kind of world record values for rimfire pistols and rifles. I wish the BoD had published the minutes from the Sep 13/14 meeting before the nationals started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 23, 2014 Author Share Posted September 23, 2014 that would have been nice .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Are the decimals one digit off? It is either that or I just don't understand it...I don't think so. I'll try to explain it differently looking at the production set of data. 65 is the baseline value. If you can shoot all 6 classification stages in 65 seconds or less you're a steel GM. 75 to 66 seconds makes you a steel master and so forth. The way I came with the 1.15 numbers as follows. 75/65 = 1.15 meaning 75 seconds is 1.15 times greater than 65. Another way of looking at it is a master class shooter could 1.15 times slower than a GM. I then calculated the values for the other classes. Hopefully it makes more sense now.What does the 9.06 mean in the production gm row? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdphotoguy Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) Are the decimals one digit off? It is either that or I just don't understand it...I don't think so. I'll try to explain it differently looking at the production set of data. 65 is the baseline value. If you can shoot all 6 classification stages in 65 seconds or less you're a steel GM. 75 to 66 seconds makes you a steel master and so forth. The way I came with the 1.15 numbers as follows. 75/65 = 1.15 meaning 75 seconds is 1.15 times greater than 65. Another way of looking at it is a master class shooter could 1.15 times slower than a GM. I then calculated the values for the other classes. Hopefully it makes more sense now.What does the 9.06 mean in the production gm row?That was the fastest time for Smoke & Hope at the World Shoot.Explained in Zack's post. Edited September 23, 2014 by jdphotoguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddKS Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I agree with Zach's approach in theory. The question is how to set the baseline. I pulled the data for the rimfire pistol at Nationals. You need a number less than 65 to start with. 25% of the rimfire shooters at Nationals were under this for the 6 classifier stages. Which baseline to choose depends on your motivation. If the motivation is to have GM be the top 5% at Nationals then you would choose 50 seconds and have very few GM's (Only Max and Heath were under 50 seconds for the classifier stages). If you used 50 seconds the breakdown using Zack's approach would be: GM 50 seconds 2 people M 57.5 seconds 6 people A 65.5 seconds 5 people B 88.5 seconds 20 people C 154 seconds 10 people D 384.5 seconds 4 people That is a pretty reasonable spread. If you wanted to have more GM's then you might go either 52.5 or 55 but if you do that then you would likely want to narrow the brackets so that you don't get too top heavy. Input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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