Virginia Count Stage Penalties

[justaute]

Context:

Rule 9.4.5 stipulates the penalties associated with extra shots and extra hits. Over the weekend, I heard someone mention that in addition to the penalties associated with 9.4.5, a procedural penalty is also assessed.

Question:

Does 10.1.1 apply to Virginia-count stages when a competitor fires extra shots/hits?

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply

with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range Officer

imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of

penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s

score sheet.

Supposition:

10.1.1 is the only rule I can find that could possibly be applied to the above-mentioned situation. For Virginia-count stages, I thought 9.4.5 is a self-contained rule that governs all penalties in connection with extra shots/hits; thus, no other procedural penalties may be assessed.

Thanks.

[aztecdriver]

Two separate things:

1. Extra hits are scored on the targets, regardless of what happens during the procedure. Simply look at the evidence, and the required hits per target and score appropriately - which becomes interesting when targets aren't separated or overlap (thing one bullet scoring two targets)

2. Extra shots only happen during the string or strings. Someone can either make a mistake or miss and shoot too many than prescribed. You don't double penalize one action, so, what I think you are looking at is 10.2.2.1

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage

procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties

for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other

rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.

[High Lord Gomer]

As a little more background, 10.2.2.1 came about based on an NROI Ruling: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=45

[justaute]

aztecdriver -- thanks for the input. Rule 9.4.5 addresses the penalties associated with both extra shots/hits. I think that's pretty straight-forward. In short, I didn't think there would be any additional procedural penalty for taking extra shots, which would already be penalized under 9.4.5.1.

High Lord -- Good reference. Thanks.

[Graham Smith]

Think of it as two separate things. Those things that happen during shooting and those that happen during scoring.

Shooting: If the stage is 12 shots and you take 13, then there is one procedural for taking an extra shot. It doesn't matter where that shot goes or what it hits. You can only have 12 and you took 13.

Scoring: If the stage description says you can only have two shots on a target and there are three on one, then that's a penalty. You would get this same penalty even if you only took 12 shots but put three on one target and one on another.

So, it's not a double penalty. It's two penalties because it's breaking two different rules.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Graham Smith

[Parallax3D]

10.1.1 would apply to something like failing to do a mandatory reload, or using the wrong hand, (strong/weak), as specified in the WSB.

Insufficient shots would be covererd under 9.4.4.
Extra shots are covered under 9.4.5.

[justaute]

Thanks for weighing in. My question is not centered around the extra shots/hits, it's regarding whether is an additional procedural penalty for not following the procedure, which I do not believe there is. The additional "procedural" penalty would thus double-penalize the shooter -- not something we want.

Think of it as two separate things. Those things that happen during shooting and those that happen during scoring.

Shooting: If the stage is 12 shots and you take 13, then there is one procedural for taking an extra shot. It doesn't matter where that shot goes or what it hits. You can only have 12 and you took 13.

Scoring: If the stage description says you can only have two shots on a target and there are three on one, then that's a penalty. You would get this same penalty even if you only took 12 shots but put three on one target and one on another.

So, it's not a double penalty. It's two penalties because it's breaking two different rules.

[Fuelie777]

You do not give them the aditional procedure penalty as the person is already being penalized for the extra shots or extra hits. That is the penalty.

[Poppa Bear]

The only extra penalties possible above the extra shot or hit are those for on the line procedurals. Foot fault, mandatory reload, SH or WH etc. The Virginia count penalties are defined under their own rules.

[justaute]

Fuelie777 & PB -- Agree with both of you.

I believe my question has been answered and position has been confirmed. Thanks for all the help.

[Skydiver]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm still annoyed to this day about how I was scored when shooting CM 99-08 Melody Line once.

I was shooting left to right. I hit T1-T5, but had a stove pipe when I pointed the gun to shoot at T6. Trying to clear the malfunction forced me to do a full reload, so I reloaded, then shot left to right again from T1-T6 + T6. I was penalized 7 procedurals for not performing the mandatory reload after having engaged T6.

In the light of 10.2.2.1, would it have been better if I'd just shot T6 once, and therefore only be penalized for the miss? Or would I just earned the 6 procedurals, and a miss?

[JayWord]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm still annoyed to this day about how I was scored when shooting CM 99-08 Melody Line once.

I was shooting left to right. I hit T1-T5, but had a stove pipe when I pointed the gun to shoot at T6. Trying to clear the malfunction forced me to do a full reload, so I reloaded, then shot left to right again from T1-T6 + T6. I was penalized 7 procedurals for not performing the mandatory reload after having engaged T6.

In the light of 10.2.2.1, would it have been better if I'd just shot T6 once, and therefore only be penalized for the miss? Or would I just earned the 6 procedurals, and a miss?

You did not get hosed for one extra procedural. As you describe, you should have only been charged 6 procedurals for failing to reload. Since it was VC you also earned an extra shot penalty when you fired the second round on T6 after the reload.

As to the other part of the question, since it was a classifier, you were hosed either way. Have a miss, down -10 plus the 5 points you could have gotten, or down 70 points and got a zero, neither one would have helped you progress.

Jay

[Skydiver]

Thanks, Jay! Yup. When the wheels came off it went off all the way.

[racerba]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm still annoyed to this day about how I was scored when shooting CM 99-08 Melody Line once.

I was shooting left to right. I hit T1-T5, but had a stove pipe when I pointed the gun to shoot at T6. Trying to clear the malfunction forced me to do a full reload, so I reloaded, then shot left to right again from T1-T6 + T6. I was penalized 7 procedurals for not performing the mandatory reload after having engaged T6.

In the light of 10.2.2.1, would it have been better if I'd just shot T6 once, and therefore only be penalized for the miss? Or would I just earned the 6 procedurals, and a miss?

You did not get hosed for one extra procedural. As you describe, you should have only been charged 6 procedurals for failing to reload. Since it was VC you also earned an extra shot penalty when you fired the second round on T6 after the reload.

As to the other part of the question, since it was a classifier, you were hosed either way. Have a miss, down -10 plus the 5 points you could have gotten, or down 70 points and got a zero, neither one would have helped you progress.

Jay

Since he reloaded and shot T1, I would say that he followed procedure of the mandatory reload. The only penalty would be the extra shot at the end.

[cautery]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm still annoyed to this day about how I was scored when shooting CM 99-08 Melody Line once.

I was shooting left to right. I hit T1-T5, but had a stove pipe when I pointed the gun to shoot at T6. Trying to clear the malfunction forced me to do a full reload, so I reloaded, then shot left to right again from T1-T6 + T6. I was penalized 7 procedurals for not performing the mandatory reload after having engaged T6.

In the light of 10.2.2.1, would it have been better if I'd just shot T6 once, and therefore only be penalized for the miss? Or would I just earned the 6 procedurals, and a miss?

Interesting question from an academic perspective... I would actually appreciate some further discussion on it. Personally, I do not see a valid justification for assessing 1 procedural per shot fired after the reload.

If this stage was shot as described above, I would have been tempted to score it as follows:

1 FTE for failing to engage T6 prior to the reload. (The WSB specifically requires the shooter to engage EACH target TWICE during the stage, once before and once after a mandatory reload. The shooter did not fire at T6 before the reload)

1 Procedural for the extra shot on T6 after the reload. (The shooter clearly fired more than 6 rounds after the reload which violates the 1 shot per target requirement in the WSB)

Scoring would depend on what T6 looked like after the Range is Clear command:

T1-T5 - scored as shot

T6:

If zero hits: 2 Mike (-20 points)

If one hit: as shot plus 1 Mike (MAX 0 points)

If two hits: as shot plus 1 Extra Hit (MAX 0 points)

In no case, with two hits, can shooter be awarded the points for both hits, as the second hit is clearly from an extra shot.

_____________________________________________________________________

If my analysis is incorrect, as an RO, I would certainly appreciate having it explained to me where I have gone awryy in my thinking. I want to understand.

Regardless of the way it is scored, Jay is spot on. This classifier would not likely count on anyone's record due to it being a 60 point classifier and extra time incurred from malfunction clearing. Best case scenario, the shooter can't possibly score better than 30 points.

50 MAX possible (No possible positive score for T6)

-10 FTE

-10 Extra Shot

---------------------

30 MAX possible.

[racerba]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm still annoyed to this day about how I was scored when shooting CM 99-08 Melody Line once.

I was shooting left to right. I hit T1-T5, but had a stove pipe when I pointed the gun to shoot at T6. Trying to clear the malfunction forced me to do a full reload, so I reloaded, then shot left to right again from T1-T6 + T6. I was penalized 7 procedurals for not performing the mandatory reload after having engaged T6.

In the light of 10.2.2.1, would it have been better if I'd just shot T6 once, and therefore only be penalized for the miss? Or would I just earned the 6 procedurals, and a miss?

Interesting question from an academic perspective... I would actually appreciate some further discussion on it. Personally, I do not see a valid justification for assessing 1 procedural per shot fired after the reload.

If this stage was shot as described above, I would have been tempted to score it as follows:

1 FTE for failing to engage T6 prior to the reload. (The WSB specifically requires the shooter to engage EACH target TWICE during the stage, once before and once after a mandatory reload. The shooter did not fire at T6 before the reload)

1 Procedural for the extra shot on T6 after the reload. (The shooter clearly fired more than 6 rounds after the reload which violates the 1 shot per target requirement in the WSB)

Scoring would depend on what T6 looked like after the Range is Clear command:

T1-T5 - scored as shot

T6:

If zero hits: 2 Mike (-20 points)

If one hit: as shot plus 1 Mike (MAX 0 points)

If two hits: as shot plus 1 Extra Hit (MAX 0 points)

In no case, with two hits, can shooter be awarded the points for both hits, as the second hit is clearly from an extra shot.

_____________________________________________________________________

If my analysis is incorrect, as an RO, I would certainly appreciate having it explained to me where I have gone awryy in my thinking. I want to understand.

Regardless of the way it is scored, Jay is spot on. This classifier would not likely count on anyone's record due to it being a 60 point classifier and extra time incurred from malfunction clearing. Best case scenario, the shooter can't possibly score better than 30 points.

50 MAX possible (No possible positive score for T6)

-10 FTE

-10 Extra Shot

---------------------

30 MAX possible.

i disagree. you cannot score a target based on what happened at the line. you have to score the target independently. there are supposed to be 2 hits on the target...there are 2 hits on the target...therefore you cannot give an extra hit penalty. how do you know which hit was the "extra" hit??? What if the shooter was off and he missed all the shots but fortunately, they all hit a target (might not be the target he was aiming for, but hit the target nonetheless). It's like if you have 3 hits on T2 and one hit on T1. The shooter did not shoot an extra shot, however he gets a miss on T1 and an extra hit on T2. You can't give the shooter an extra shot based on 3 hits on a target.

Now - FTE would be a different story. I will agree with that one and score 1 FTE and 1 extra shot for penalties.

[cautery]

Sorry for the thread hijack, but I'm still annoyed to this day about how I was scored when shooting CM 99-08 Melody Line once.

I was shooting left to right. I hit T1-T5, but had a stove pipe when I pointed the gun to shoot at T6. Trying to clear the malfunction forced me to do a full reload, so I reloaded, then shot left to right again from T1-T6 + T6. I was penalized 7 procedurals for not performing the mandatory reload after having engaged T6.

In the light of 10.2.2.1, would it have been better if I'd just shot T6 once, and therefore only be penalized for the miss? Or would I just earned the 6 procedurals, and a miss?

Interesting question from an academic perspective... I would actually appreciate some further discussion on it. Personally, I do not see a valid justification for assessing 1 procedural per shot fired after the reload.

If this stage was shot as described above, I would have been tempted to score it as follows:

1 FTE for failing to engage T6 prior to the reload. (The WSB specifically requires the shooter to engage EACH target TWICE during the stage, once before and once after a mandatory reload. The shooter did not fire at T6 before the reload)

1 Procedural for the extra shot on T6 after the reload. (The shooter clearly fired more than 6 rounds after the reload which violates the 1 shot per target requirement in the WSB)

Scoring would depend on what T6 looked like after the Range is Clear command:

T1-T5 - scored as shot

T6:

If zero hits: 2 Mike (-20 points)

If one hit: as shot plus 1 Mike (MAX 0 points)

If two hits: as shot plus 1 Extra Hit (MAX 0 points)

In no case, with two hits, can shooter be awarded the points for both hits, as the second hit is clearly from an extra shot.

_____________________________________________________________________

If my analysis is incorrect, as an RO, I would certainly appreciate having it explained to me where I have gone awryy in my thinking. I want to understand.

Regardless of the way it is scored, Jay is spot on. This classifier would not likely count on anyone's record due to it being a 60 point classifier and extra time incurred from malfunction clearing. Best case scenario, the shooter can't possibly score better than 30 points.

50 MAX possible (No possible positive score for T6)

-10 FTE

-10 Extra Shot

---------------------

30 MAX possible.

i disagree. you cannot score a target based on what happened at the line. you have to score the target independently. there are supposed to be 2 hits on the target...there are 2 hits on the target...therefore you cannot give an extra hit penalty. how do you know which hit was the "extra" hit??? What if the shooter was off and he missed all the shots but fortunately, they all hit a target (might not be the target he was aiming for, but hit the target nonetheless). It's like if you have 3 hits on T2 and one hit on T1. The shooter did not shoot an extra shot, however he gets a miss on T1 and an extra hit on T2. You can't give the shooter an extra shot based on 3 hits on a target.

Now - FTE would be a different story. I will agree with that one and score 1 FTE and 1 extra shot for penalties.

We score targets based on "what happened at the line" all the time. Every FTE I award is based on what the shooter does "at the line" (during the course of fire).

In this case, I know for a FACT that the shooter did not engage the target prior to the reload. I KNOW that he ONLY fired 5 shots. I KNOW that he fired 7 shots AFTER the reload. I KNOW that it is mathematically impossible for him to have more than one "legal" hit on T6.

As for which hit is the "extra shot" and how to score it... there is a rule to cover that... On any target having more hits than are scorable, for instance if a shooter fires a makeup on a target and has three hits, then the RO scored the two hits with the highest score.

The only issue is whether there is IN FACT an extra hit OR NOT. Extra hits are NOT scored.

In MOST circumstances the RO could not rule 1 of 2 hits on a target as an extra hit due to an extra shot because the RO could not reasonably KNOW which of the shots hit the paper and which did not... In this case, we KNOW there is 2 shots, one of which is definitely an "extra shot". Unlike when there are three hits on a paper target... no definitve way to know which of the three are the extra shot... which is why the "arbitrary" decision was made to grant the HIGHEST two scoring vs. some other method.

SO, I am simply following the same logic... scoring the highest one of two hits...

Bottom Line: Question: Is a hit resulting from a known extra shot scored as an "extra hit".

As I said, I have no dog in this race and am not trying to push it either way... I simply analyzed it according to the way I have read the rules. If I'm wrong, cool... just want to know the "why", because to my reading of the rules, there is nothing that clearly addresses this situation.

[cautery]

Perhaps I should write this up as a question for our new NROI director....

[teros135]

Hmmmm. Let's try this:

One FTE for not firing at the target during the first "string" before the reload (9.5.7, scored "at the firing line").

Then he reloaded and engaged T1-T6 again, as per WSB. But he also added an extra shot at T6, which is scored as 1 procedural (extra shots, 9.4.5.1, scored at the firing line).

T6 "should" have only 1 hit but may have 2. Score the hits as they are, and also add 1 procedural for the extra hit (extra hits, 9.4.5.2, scored "at the target"). It doesn't matter which is the extra hit; the penalty takes care of that.

In COFs like this, folks here generally do a reload to finish the first "string" (so just one shot out of that mag at T6, to finish the first part of the WSB requirement), then perform the normal "mandatory reload" and engage T1-T6 again. Of course, it costs time and blows the classifier, but you have to do what you have to do to finish the stage.

[Nik Habicht]

Or maybe reread the rules in question?

1. 9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be awarded.

So if the string specifies for 12 rounds to be fired (six, reload six) you cannot assess an extra shot penalty until the 13th shot is broken.....

During scoring, we'll only credit the best (insert specified number) hits on paper.

then:

1. 9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or no-shoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

Now you move to the targets and score the best two hits for the single string in the example on each target. As long as there are tow hits on each only, you don't take anything away. If a target has three or more hits in the scoring zones, then you assess a procedural for each hit in excess of 2 -- but you still score the best two....

Make more sense now?

The shooter in question cleared a malfunction after engaging T5 (which involved replacing the mag) and should have engaged T6 next, followed by performing a mandatory reload before reengaging T1-6. Since after clearing the malfunction he fired seven rounds without ever performing the mandatory reload, he gets seven procedurals (one per shot fired from the point where the reload had been performed.)

Had he fired the targets starting at T6 (2 rounds), followed by T5-1 (1 each) he could have reduced the number of penalties by one....

[Nik Habicht]

Hmmmm. Let's try this:

One FTE for not firing at the target during the first "string" before the reload (9.5.7, scored "at the firing line").

Then he reloaded and engaged T1-T6 again, as per WSB. But he also added an extra shot at T6, which is scored as 1 procedural (extra shots, 9.4.5.1, scored at the firing line).

T6 "should" have only 1 hit but may have 2. Score the hits as they are, and also add 1 procedural for the extra hit (extra hits, 9.4.5.2, scored "at the target"). It doesn't matter which is the extra hit; the penalty takes care of that.

In COFs like this, folks here generally do a reload to finish the first "string" (so just one shot out of that mag at T6, to finish the first part of the WSB requirement), then perform the normal "mandatory reload" and engage T1-T6 again. Of course, it costs time and blows the classifier, but you have to do what you have to do to finish the stage.

Nope.

FTE rule:

1. 9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penal- ties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

Note that says "in a course of fire" not during one portion of a course of fire or during one component string. If the competitor ever fired at the target then you can't call an FTE. (Rare exception -- an unactivated mover, but that's outside the scope of this discussion)

Not an extra shot -- unless he fired 13 instead of 12 -- see post above.

Not an extra hit -- unless there are three holes in one target -- see post above.....

[Nik Habicht]

I don't know where the number 1 is coming from in all the quotes.....

It shouldn't be there -- all the rule citations come from chapter 9....

[teros135]

But he did fire an extra shot at T6. The WSB says "Upon start signal, turn, then draw and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then make a mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only one round per target."

In this classifier, which is Virginia Count, you only get that one round before the reload and one round after it - hit or miss - and you don't get "make-ups" from when you forgot to engage during the first string, before the mandatory reload. That's the whole point of Virginia Count (as in CM 06-03, Can You Count).

He also didn't engage T6 the first time around (he forgot - geez, I do that regularly when I have a malfunction), and that would seem to be a FTE. He didn't shoot at it when he was supposed to.

I know, I know, the FTE or "failure to shoot at" text says "in a course of fire", but he clearly neglected the WSB instruction to "engage T1-T6 with only only one round per target". So I guess that would be a procedural for not following the WSB instead of a FTE. Either way, what was done violates the instructions for the classifier.

(No dig at the shooter - we've all had those brain farts! I recently went past a popper that was right next to a paper target - duh!. It wasn't a regulation shape popper (it was Level 1) but the darn thing was right there...)

[cautery]

Nik - I understand the logic you are applying in your analysis...

I was operating based on what the OP stated... "full reload".

IF he cleared the malfunction by a procedure that included removing the magazine and then put the same mag back, I would agree with you....

BUT, if he "reloaded", which I interpret to mean replacing one mag with another one... which is what I would interpret the OPs words to mean, then I would submit that this satisfies the "mandatory reload" as per the WSB...

So whether you call the failure to engage T6 an FTE or Procedural failure to follow the instructions in the WSB, it's the same net result.

Firing TWICE at T6 AFTER the "reload" is either 1) extra shot, or 2) procedural for failure to follow WSB instructions (fired 7 with 2 on one target vs. 1 per target/six total) same net result.

Once again, we're back at the extra shot/extra hit question which if it is ruled #2 Procedural for failing to comply with WSB, then it isn't an "extra shot"...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, this is why I requested further discussion of this scenario... would make a fine Level I RO Class discussion.

To arrive at the 6 procedurals "solution", one has to conclude that the "reload" was not really a reload....

So, I guess the first/key question that has to be adjuticated prior to addressing any of the rest of this scenario is:

Was there a "reload"? Or was the "reload" only part of malfunction clearing?

I submit, barring a ruling from NROI, that it would have been an RO judgement call as to what the shooter's INTENT was based on observation by the RO... [EDIT: In light of the applicable rules]
If the shooter reloaded a 2nd magazine, and...

If the shooter re-engaged from T1-T6, the shooter INTENT was to NOT engage T6 and to proceed with the stage from the madatory reload...

I submit that the evidence points to the INTENT of the shooter to choose NOT to engage T6 the first time as instructed, and move on to the mandatory reload.
_______________________________________________________________________

Again, I may well be wrong, but I think there is sufficient ambiguity to make an argument either way...

Someone PM Troy...

[EDIT: I wrote a PM to ask Troy if he would care to comment and/or rule]


PS - Jay, Nik, et al. Not trying to argue or be obstinate or anything... I am genuinely intrigued with the scenario and am simply discussing it as an academic exercise.

Edited August 20, 2014 by cautery

[teros135]

There have been a lot of discussions about "intent", most of which end up saying it doesn't matter what the "intent" of the shooter or stage designer was (because we can't know that) - what matters is what they did. The shooter did engage T1-T5, didn't engage T6, then performed a reload and engaged T1-T6, then added a second shot at T6. His overall attempt seems to satisfy the WSB; however, he did neglect to engage T6 on the first pass (shooting it was required by the WSB) and he did fire two shots at T6 on the second pass (extra shot).

So, looking at what he did do, I'd still recommend a procedural for not following the WSB by not shooting at T6 on the first pass, a procedural for the extra shot at T6 on the second pass, and a procedural for a second hit on T6 (if there was one). Both hits on T6 (if present) would be scored; the "hit' procedural makes it irrelevant which round was the extra hit.

Isn't this fun?!

Edited August 20, 2014 by teros135