Rife target presentation Bravo to Scott Hawkins

[Stlhead]

Right now the largest size is 10" round. 12" is being tested with 223.

[co-exprs]

While the rope pull reset will work out to 500yds, the targets can only be used to 300yds for 4(ish)moa presentation. So in my neck of the woods we still don't have a cost effective solution for falling targets beyond 300. Rats.

Edited July 16, 2014 by co-exprs

[Doug H.]

A guy made a 16" mild steel thin target for use with an R&R rope pull base at 400+ yards and my 68 gr Black Hills walked right through the steel. Robert could make larger diameter thinner AR500 steel targets but if you shoot them closer than 400 yards they will warp like the ones he made for others I won't name here.

Doug

[Stlhead]

Another question would be should we be shooting targets at over 300 yards at a match?

[co-exprs]

If not, then there would be no need for magnified scopes.

[outerlimits]

Another question would be should we be shooting targets at over 300 yards at a match?

If you dislike 300+, stick with 3gun nation matches.

[Stlhead]

I don't see a need for magnified optics in our sport now. And I certainly don't dislike shots over 300 yards. Three gun is not percision rifle, that is an entirely different game. I feel that with good stage design 300 yards is more than sufficient range to provide plenty of challenge. I would rather see the shooting problem made more difficult with varied positions, more movement, larger round counts, and physical challenges than just going prone and hammering away at a bunch of long targets. No need to threaten me with pizza boxes for raising a question.

[P.E. Kelley]

I don't see a need for magnified optics in our sport now. And I certainly don't dislike shots over 300 yards. Three gun is not percision rifle, that is an entirely different game. I feel that with good stage design 300 yards is more than sufficient range to provide plenty of challenge. I would rather see the shooting problem made more difficult with varied positions, more movement, larger round counts, and physical challenges than just going prone and hammering away at a bunch of long targets. No need to threaten me with pizza boxes for raising a question.

I am with you. Case in point. We all saw a bunch of very good shooters expend way too many shots at the NW Multigun on targets with excellent definition

all less than 300 yards away. Shooting over plastic barrels or other props makes those shots a challenge.

[Sterling White]

This match is located outside of Bend approximately 30 minutes nestled in an area with pinyon - juniper - sagebrush hillsides. The stages are built so that your doing a little shooting inside the berms and some through the trees. It is one of my favorite matches to attend for several reason: the targets and shooting positions were very well done; Ro's/match staff are shooters so you get the watchful eyes of another competitor; and my lady enjoys staying back to enjoy the many things to do in town. After match hours we enjoy catching dinner at one of the many pubs that offer cold beverages from any of the seventeen breweries in Bend. And if your into fly fishing you can test your luck downtown - not like Mr. Alzeda did back during handgun Nats!

[co-exprs]

We have a small, local, monthly, Tac Rifle match here in Southern Colorado (the real CO). Targets go out as far as 400yds but that is as far as the Pueblo range can go. All of the positions are awkward, unusual and unstable. Even when allowed to shoot prone, the position is not ideal, like shooting prone through a pipe which is 4" too high off the ground, or shooting through the holes in a cinderblock. Last month we shot from a roof top which was turned around backwards so you had no crown and were sitting on the slope. That puts some hair on your chest... trying to hit a 10" plate at 275yds in high wind, while sitting on the front slope of a mock roof. Anyway... I love that match and try to shoot every one if I can. Just as an observation though... the matches we shoot at the Whittington Ct cry out for distance. 450-600yds might seem like a bit of a stretch, but a full sized IPSC at 500yds is a 4moa(ish) target and within the ballistic capability of our rounds, rifles and sighting systems. I've also noticed that the ones who seem to take the most exception to those long shots are the competitors most able to hit them consistently. You'd think that the new guy, who shows up with an M4gery and a poorly zero'd Eotech would be the one unhappy with a 450yd ABC, but they are the ones who dump a mag and then are thankful for an opportunity to get to shoot at something further than the 200yd berm at their local range. My personal feeling is that a 500yd, full sized IPSC, well presented is a legit target to see in a match from time to time. I thought that the 430yd ABC's used at Superstition this year were an excellent example of a well presented distance target. They could be easily seen and the strobes were a positive strike indicator and they didn't require much maintenance. I love the idea of falling targets and I love shooting stages with longer range targets (even though I'm not particularly good at them) with strobe indicators. These rope pull targets sound like the bee's knees for closer targets and I'm sitting here at my desk trying to think of how we can bridge the gap between 250 and 400yds with similarly positive strike indication without breaking the bank. Those strobe set up's are actually a bit expensive. I think JJ told me that it cost him about $300 to equip each target with strobes. That adds up quick.

Edited July 17, 2014 by co-exprs

[Stlhead]

I have shot JJ's flashing targets, as well as most every other sort of target that is in common use for longer ranged rifle. I would rather have a 10" falling plate at 300 than a full metric target at 500 yards any day. The 10" circle is 3.3 MOA in windage and elevation, we have a way to make it fall to score, it is consistent, and a 55 gr .223 knocks it down. The full metric offers a 3.5 MOA wide and 4.6 MOA high target PLUS the "head". Depending on the wind conditions, all else being equal the metric is an easier target to hit, the problem is in indicating those hits. The strobes are not as consistent as some would like, calling visible splash is possible, but is highly dependent on the skill of the person calling the hits. Nothing beats the certainty of watching the steel fall as you are transitioning to your next target. No input from the RO is required, no judgment calls, it's up or it's down. Pull the cord and call the next shooter to the line.

Will I stop shooting matches that don't offer falling steel? No, that would be silly, I participate in the sport because I love it. Because I love it I want it to get better, and well presented falling steel is better. And I am putting my money where my moth is, I ordered a pair of the targets and will take them to any match that I am going to that wants to use them. Next spring I will buy a couple more.

Having lots of range to shoot is great, but I think that there are better ways to use it than a traditional 3 gun match. How about adding another gun? If the range is available then add some targets out to as far as you want and let me shoot them with a precision rifle. If the targets are not going to fall at least let me smack it with enough gusto to make it obvious to the person calling hits. Tougher to travel to a 4 gun match, but more guns do equal more fun.

[co-exprs]

I like the challenge of shooting at targets further away than 300yds in 3gun matches.

[Benelli Chick]

JJ is planning on some local precision rifle mixed with carbine here as it does cry out for distance AND he has a new bolt gun!

We'll see how they go.

Denise

[outerlimits]

I don't see a need for magnified optics in our sport now. And I certainly don't dislike shots over 300 yards. Three gun is not percision rifle, that is an entirely different game. I feel that with good stage design 300 yards is more than sufficient range to provide plenty of challenge. I would rather see the shooting problem made more difficult with varied positions, more movement, larger round counts, and physical challenges than just going prone and hammering away at a bunch of long targets. No need to threaten me with pizza boxes for raising a question.

not trying to threaten you, man. just saying i enjoy the challenge. understanding ballistics makes 3 gun fun. i ain't interested in precision rifle at all. and definitely not interested in pizza boxes.

i can recall the uspsa 3 gun nationals in reno back in 2004. there was a rifle stage where we were shooting out to maybe 260-280. there was a 4x8' plywood wall , framed, and standing on it's side. there were two ports, each about 6" wide and maybe 15" tall, positioned at the lower left and right corners of the wall. did i also mention that wall had walls on both sides as well? so, you HAD to shoot weak handed, all smashed up in a bizarre position. worst position i ever shot, and i had practiced weak hand rifle, but not all bunched up like that. quite a challenge.

[Sterling White]

We had a squad member shoot and knock down one of the R&R's at the NW and then sit there..... waiting, waiting..... then he snapped and realized that the plate had been hit and was down to go on and engage the remaining targets. Later he said that he was waiting for the call from the RO that it had been hit. He said that his mind had jumped backwards a few weeks to the Ironman where everything was being called. So the point of this conversation about falling steel is good - there was no mistaking or questioning a hit on rifle steel at distance. I didn't hear anyone on our squad complain about the long range rifle targets. Each rifle steel was painted black and backed with white so targets were visible in the shadows and different times of the day, the target fell when hit, and when a thump was heard and the target didn't fall it was because the bullet impact was low into the splash plate.

[Rckymtnshooter]

One of the aspects I like in a multigun match is difficult rifle targets. The Northwest Multigun had these without stretching much past 250 yards. I liked their stage layout where you had long range, move and shoot close range and then long range again. I do like to see some shots pushing 350-400 but with a shooting position that gives you the stability to make the shot. I like to see the need to know the ballistics and hold over on your rifle. Great Job Scott and Doug !

[Moltke]

There's a better way to make the rifle shooting hard then pushing distance out farther or introducing small targets. Doing that generally screws the IRONS shooters pretty hard.

If you want to make the rifle shooting more difficult then just put out more targets. Keep the 4+ MOA sizes so people can see them easily, just put a bunch of them out there.

Can you imagine instead of 4 rifle targets downrange, that there's 16? Granted they're all within 300 yards and reasonably sized, but there's 16 of them?

Force the shooter to get precise sight alignment 16 times, and transition their gun 16 times, and get steady 16 times, and if you really want to press them than make them do it from a little bit of an uncomfortable position.

That's hard enough as-is without a small or hard to see target, or something that's so far away wind conditions on .223 will turn a nice course of fire in the morning into a hell bound wind orgy by the afternoon. People don't like to burn through a magazine of $1 per bullet ammo trying to hit one single "F-you" target that ruins their match.

3 Gun is not DMR shooting and we need to make courses of fire that reward a shooters ability to precisely and quickly execute Sight Alignment and Trigger Control against all targets with a balanced approach across the three guns.

But that's just my opinion, and it sounds like your match was well thought out.

[Doug H.]

Great idea, you buy the steel and we'll put it in the match!

Doug

[Moltke]

Or hit the same 4 targets that are closer in 4 times each making them transition between them instead of staying on one target hammering it. Just offering another alternative!

[Doug H.]

Except our targets fall and are not available till reset, which was what this thread was about.

Doug

[Moltke]

I'm supposing that the reset time for the targets is not doable on the clock?

I've shot LaRue targets which fall and auto reset, and they are slow enough to rise that making a competitor wait on them wouldn't be cool.

Anyway I'll backout of this one...

[Stlhead]

Everyone that has had problems with Larue targets please raise their hands......

I am game for 16 200-300 yard falling steel targets on a stage, from a few shooting positions, and think it would be a smashing idea. Doug, I won't commit to all 16, but I would be in for 4, possibly 6, but the match will need to be a different week next year. Can't make the week after the 4th in 2015.

[ziebart]

I liked the 1 to 4 lr targets per stage. Forced a fast setup into position or positions that were not perfect. If there were 16 then it would be worth getting perfect NPA and all that jazz.

Larue and MGM electric and pnumatic reset targets are great for 308, but I don't think they work reliability for all 223 ammo. There were problems at USPSA Nat's with both systems the last couple of years.

Pulling the string on the clock isn't the best either. Maybe if there were no brush but still adds another element that isn't needed.

Add all that to the desire to have all 3 guns on all stages at NWMGC, a 16 target LR section would probably throw match balance and squad flow off. There were plenty of people that timed out with 200 seconds and 2 lr targets. If they had to hit that many targets it would have been game over.

Edited July 23, 2014 by ziebart