Powder type vs percieved recoil?

[BoyGlock]

Im a CE and understand these analyses but I prefer to enjoy the shooting to forget for awhile the stresses of engineering. I tend to learn to manage recoil the empirical way. Lols!

Edited July 22, 2014 by BoyGlock

[peterthefish]

I studied engineering but ended up in a non-engineering career, so it's the opposite for me. Shooting is a chance to connect with my inner geek.

/Sits back down with Quickload and VV loading guide.

[JWeber]

I just read an article in Handgun Magazine. Someone shot 1000 rounds testing recoil and different powders. The bottom line is that the powder that uses the lowest amount to get a velocity has the lowest recoil.

[BoyGlock]

I just read an article in Handgun Magazine. Someone shot 1000 rounds testing recoil and different powders. The bottom line is that the powder that uses the lowest amount to get a velocity has the lowest recoil.

As long as it does not make overly high pressure I can subscribe to it. And not in Open comped pistols.

[superdude]

As JWeber (and others) notes, different gunpowders produce different amounts of recoil, and it is tied to how much gunpowder is required to make a given velocity. The bottom line is that more gunpowder weight for the same velocity means more recoil. It turns out to be simple physics and is explained by conservation of mass. The mass of the gunpowder must also be added to the mass of stuff coming out the end of the barrel. More gunpowder means more mass in the ejecta = more recoil.

Mathematical formulas use the gunpowder charge weight to calculate recoil force. There are a couple of recoil calculators on the web, and links to them are posted below. You can find a discussion of the physics behind this at the Wikipedia website, also listed below. If you do the math and compare a fast gunpowder to a slow gunpowder that use very different charge weights for the same velocity, you can have as much as a 20-25% difference in recoil. That's quite a bit.

The article that JWeber refers to might be the one at this link:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/07/15/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/

Compensators use the extra gas from large charge-weight gunpowders to reduce muzzle climb. That is explained and supported with data here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/04/09/compensators-pressure-gas/

Wiki Article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

Recoil calculators:

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

[benos]

Although I never could prove that I shot them any better, score-wise, I always preferred fast powders and heavier bullets.

[MotorMouth]

Well of course there's a recoil calculator on the web. Why wouldn't there be?

[AmmoGuy]

Great topic, so many scientific formulations, BUT everyone is forgetting to take into consideration the gun itself, metal or plastic how it's sprung not just the slide but also the main spring, also persons body weight.

If you need more energy to unlock and move the slide past the hammer then you will have more felt recoil. Next to consider is the powder not just how fast or slow but also how fast it pressure peaks, this is in conjunction with the bullet weight and making minor or major, shooting Standard or Open. Of course if a comped gun for major only a light bullet with slow powder within reason will do, as you need the gas and particles to work the comp.

Speaking only from my own experiance with some of the loads I've worked up over the years such as.

In a 45 ACP out of my Colt Gold Cup 15 lb spring with a 19 lbs main spring.

Clays does a good job with the 200 SWC and 230 FMJ.

Tightwad does to me a bit better job with the 200 SWC but not with the 230 FMJ. Both are fast powders but the diff lies in the pressure peak. Using the same charge say 3.7 grs the Tightwad will drive to a higher Vol but is about peaked out. The Clays does much better with the 230 FMJ. This relates to the perceved and felt recoil as I see it.. We all have a different perseption what is recoil.

And yes, shooting Std. in general the heavyer bullets as per caliber will prefer a fast powder but at what pressure peak.

When it comes to the light bullets,as per caliber some of the faster powders do work but using some of the medium burn powders ( not slow ) can do a better job with felt recoil. As stated above when it comes to comp loads everything changes.

I can do pages and pages of loads I've used but that's up to the each person to decide what he likes best. I know what I prefer and usually works for others.

[AmmoGuy]

As JWeber (and others) notes, different gunpowders produce different amounts of recoil, and it is tied to how much gunpowder is required to make a given velocity. The bottom line is that more gunpowder weight for the same velocity means more recoil. It turns out to be simple physics and is explained by conservation of mass. The mass of the gunpowder must also be added to the mass of stuff coming out the end of the barrel. More gunpowder means more mass in the ejecta = more recoil.

Mathematical formulas use the gunpowder charge weight to calculate recoil force. There are a couple of recoil calculators on the web, and links to them are posted below. You can find a discussion of the physics behind this at the Wikipedia website, also listed below. If you do the math and compare a fast gunpowder to a slow gunpowder that use very different charge weights for the same velocity, you can have as much as a 20-25% difference in recoil. That's quite a bit.

The article that JWeber refers to might be the one at this link:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/07/15/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/

Compensators use the extra gas from large charge-weight gunpowders to reduce muzzle climb. That is explained and supported with data here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/04/09/compensators-pressure-gas/

Wiki Article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

Recoil calculators:

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

[AmmoGuy]

Im a CE and understand these analyses but I prefer to enjoy the shooting to forget for awhile the stresses of engineering. I tend to learn to manage recoil the empirical way. Lols!

As JWeber (and others) notes, different gunpowders produce different amounts of recoil, and it is tied to how much gunpowder is required to make a given velocity. The bottom line is that more gunpowder weight for the same velocity means more recoil. It turns out to be simple physics and is explained by conservation of mass. The mass of the gunpowder must also be added to the mass of stuff coming out the end of the barrel. More gunpowder means more mass in the ejecta = more recoil.

Mathematical formulas use the gunpowder charge weight to calculate recoil force. There are a couple of recoil calculators on the web, and links to them are posted below. You can find a discussion of the physics behind this at the Wikipedia website, also listed below. If you do the math and compare a fast gunpowder to a slow gunpowder that use very different charge weights for the same velocity, you can have as much as a 20-25% difference in recoil. That's quite a bit.

The article that JWeber refers to might be the one at this link:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/07/15/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/

Compensators use the extra gas from large charge-weight gunpowders to reduce muzzle climb. That is explained and supported with data here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2014/04/09/compensators-pressure-gas/

Wiki Article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas

Recoil calculators:

http://kwk.us/recoil.html

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

Im a CE and understand these analyses but I prefer to enjoy the shooting to forget for awhile the stresses of engineering. I tend to learn to manage recoil the empirical way. Lols!

Great topic, so many scientific formulations, BUT everyone is forgetting to take into consideration the gun itself, metal or plastic how it's sprung not just the slide but also the main spring, also persons body weight.

If you need more energy to unlock and move the slide past the hammer then you will have more felt recoil. Next to consider is the powder not just how fast or slow but also how fast it pressure peaks, this is in conjunction with the bullet weight and making minor or major, shooting Standard or Open. Of course if a comped gun for major only a light bullet with slow powder within reason will do, as you need the gas and particles to work the comp.

Speaking only from my own experiance with some of the loads I've worked up over the years such as.

In a 45 ACP out of my Colt Gold Cup 15 lb spring with a 19 lbs main spring.

Clays does a good job with the 200 SWC and 230 FMJ.

Tightwad does to me a bit better job with the 200 SWC but not with the 230 FMJ. Both are fast powders but the diff lies in the pressure peak. Using the same charge say 3.7 grs the Tightwad will drive to a higher Vol but is about peaked out. The Clays does much better with the 230 FMJ. This relates to the perceved and felt recoil as I see it.. We all have a different perseption what is recoil.

And yes, shooting Std. in general the heavyer bullets as per caliber will prefer a fast powder but at what pressure peak.

When it comes to the light bullets,as per caliber some of the faster powders do work but using some of the medium burn powders ( not slow ) can do a better job with felt recoil. As stated above when it comes to comp loads everything changes.

I can do pages and pages of loads I've used but that's up to the each person to decide what he likes best. I know what I prefer and usually works for others.

[jimbullet]

I just read an article in Handgun Magazine. Someone shot 1000 rounds testing recoil and different powders. The bottom line is that the powder that uses the lowest amount to get a velocity has the lowest recoil.

As long as it does not make overly high pressure I can subscribe to it. And not in Open comped pistols.

This is all interesting. I have mostly shot fast powders for standard just because it has been the norm and slow powders for comp'd guns for me to make 9mm major with all that powder...

For non-comp'd guns, in that statement to use less powder to achieve velocity desired, for me means that fast powders are the way to go to achieve lowest recoil. So it would be correct to say that slow powders result in more recoil as you need more of it to achieve the same velocity and same PF?

[peterthefish]

For non-comp'd guns, in that statement to use less powder to achieve velocity desired, for me means that fast powders are the way to go to achieve lowest recoil. So it would be correct to say that slow powders result in more recoil as you need more of it to achieve the same velocity and same PF?

Correct.

[JMike]

Thanks for providing those links. Very interesting reading, at least in my book.