CZinSC Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 WSB says Gun Unloaded on table ( for this example, the blue box below is the table), all magazines to be used for the stage on the table. Competitor puts his gun down FIRST. Then proceeds to put the magazines down on the table. Clearly #1 and #7 are fine. They are behind the muzzle. Clearly # 4 is a DQ. Muzzle is pointing at your hand when you place that one down. My question is, what about #2, 3, 5, 6? DQ for any of them? All of them? 2&6 are good, 3&5 are not? Rule 10.5.5 is Match DQ: Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). So how far past the yellow line on the picture and at what angle do you call it sweeping? You can argue that when placing #3 the muzzle wasn’t pointing at your hand, or can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 sweeping is pointing the muzzle *at* a body part, not just towards it. #4 would be the only likely dq. 2, 3, 5, and 6 would warrant a 'wtf', but not a dq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 We frequently reach downrange of the muzzle to open ports, doors, and windows. As long as the muzzle doesn't point directly *at* a body part, no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 you can even put mag #4 there as long as you don't let the barrel point at you hand when you do it. ( barrel pointed at mag base fingers on sides would be very close but do-able) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 in area 1, twice i saw people, on the same stage, put down their gun first and then put their hand in front of the muzzle while placing mags. one was ignored for whatever reason, the other the person was taken to the side and spoken to and then allowed to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Only #4 is a DQ if done incorrectly. Personally I would pick the gun up and place #4. then put the gun back down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Or better yet, stage magazines first, and then draw (turn on optics, etc.) and then put the gun on the table. As one of the many people teaching me the game said, the non-normal starts are part of the challenge thrown in by stage designers to throw you off your mental game. Your job is to not let it distract you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Without knowing what the rest of the stage looks like, most of the time I run competitors on a table start with mags on table stage, I have them pre-stage their mags while we're scoring. They can set down their mags, do their final walkthru, then come back and I'll give them a "make ready." In most cases, competitors lay their mags down first anyway, so I don't generally have to make the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 While I will agree that the mags should have been placed on the table first to avoid this discussion... Sweeping is when you have control of the gun (gun in your hands). IF the gun was already on the table AND the hands are off the gun, no sweeping...for any of the mags... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 We had a table start with all mags on the table at our last local match. The seasoned RO (and by seasoned I might also mean he smells funny) suggested to the new shooters that they first stow any mags that they plan on taking with them before picking up the gun so that they would be less likely to point the gun at themselves. The only reason I can see for placing the mags forward of the gun is if I plan on grabbing them off the tables as I run back by later in the stage (and by run I might mean stumble). Even then I would place them to one side or the other, not directly in front of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 While I will agree that the mags should have been placed on the table first to avoid this discussion... Sweeping is when you have control of the gun (gun in your hands). IF the gun was already on the table AND the hands are off the gun, no sweeping...for any of the mags... I think you need to read the rule again. It states "allowing the muzzle....", there is no verbiage that I see that states "when you have control". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 While I will agree that the mags should have been placed on the table first to avoid this discussion... Sweeping is when you have control of the gun (gun in your hands). IF the gun was already on the table AND the hands are off the gun, no sweeping...for any of the mags... I think you need to read the rule again. It states "allowing the muzzle....", there is no verbiage that I see that states "when you have control". It's under "Unsafe Gun Handling". If the gun is not in your hand, you cannot be handling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 While I will agree that the mags should have been placed on the table first to avoid this discussion... Sweeping is when you have control of the gun (gun in your hands). IF the gun was already on the table AND the hands are off the gun, no sweeping...for any of the mags... I think you need to read the rule again. It states "allowing the muzzle....", there is no verbiage that I see that states "when you have control". It's under "Unsafe Gun Handling". If the gun is not in your hand, you cannot be handling it. Still not seeing anything. You have a rule number you'd like to share that confirms what you're saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 While I will agree that the mags should have been placed on the table first to avoid this discussion... Sweeping is when you have control of the gun (gun in your hands). IF the gun was already on the table AND the hands are off the gun, no sweeping...for any of the mags... I think you need to read the rule again. It states "allowing the muzzle....", there is no verbiage that I see that states "when you have control". It's under "Unsafe Gun Handling". If the gun is not in your hand, you cannot be handling it. Still not seeing anything. You have a rule number you'd like to share that confirms what you're saying? From page 60 of the rulebook: Sweeping...................... Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person’s body. And from page 47 of the rulebook: 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). Doesn't say you have to be holding it, just that the muzzle points at part of the competitor's body during a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) While I will agree that the mags should have been placed on the table first to avoid this discussion... Sweeping is when you have control of the gun (gun in your hands). IF the gun was already on the table AND the hands are off the gun, no sweeping...for any of the mags... I think you need to read the rule again. It states "allowing the muzzle....", there is no verbiage that I see that states "when you have control". It's under "Unsafe Gun Handling". If the gun is not in your hand, you cannot be handling it. Still not seeing anything. You have a rule number you'd like to share that confirms what you're saying? 10.5 Match Disqualification - Unsafe Gun Handling 10.5.1 ... 10.5.2 ... 10.5.3 ... 10.5.4 ... 10.5.5 Allowing... 10.5.5 is a sub-rule under the heading Unsafe Gun Handling (10.5). You need the gun to be in your hand to be handling it. While you are handling the gun, you allow the muzzle to point at any part of the body...it is Unsafe Gun Handling and is a DQ. And from Frag's post from the glossary - "pointing" cannot be done if you don't have the gun in your hand. Edited July 8, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) And from page 47 of the rulebook: 10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). Doesn't say you have to be holding it, just that the muzzle points at part of the competitor's body during a course of fire. It's under 10.5 ...Unsafe Gun Handling...see above... Edited July 8, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) to add to the discussion... There was a case where it was a table start and you started standing away from the table...i don't remember how far, but it's a few steps to get to the table to retrieve the gun. While the competitor was at the start position, a gust of wind blew the table over, resulting in the gun being on the ground. Some people thought it should be a DQ due to dropped gun. Final decision was that it is NOT a DQ because the competitor was not "handling" the gun. no - I don't know the exact name and place or time...I think it was brought up during an RO or CRO class... Edited July 8, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acpie360 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 On the same line you guys are debating, I wonder - For those guys who use DOH holsters, the muzzle would have been pointing to the side of your leg to some degree, wouldn't it? Why don't we call that sweeping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 to add to the discussion... There was a case where it was a table start and you started standing away from the table...i don't remember how far, but it's a few steps to get to the table to retrieve the gun. While the competitor was at the start position, a gust of wind blew the table over, resulting in the gun being on the ground. Some people thought it should be a DQ due to dropped gun. Final decision was that it is NOT a DQ because the competitor was not "handling" the gun. no - I don't know the exact name and place or time...I think it was brought up during an RO or CRO class... That sounds like a good call but if the competitor bumps the table and the gun falls that is a dropped gun because he "caused" it to fall. And the only time a gun is inert is when it is in the holster so you can not put your hands in front of the muzzle of a gun at any time other than when holstered. That's why there is a rule that mentions sweeping while the gun is holstered. Then there is this rule under unsafe gun handling which clearly does not require you to handle the gun to be DQ'ed: 10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 On the same line you guys are debating, I wonder - For those guys who use DOH holsters, the muzzle would have been pointing to the side of your leg to some degree, wouldn't it? Why don't we call that sweeping? 10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 And the only time a gun is inert is when it is in the holster so you can not put your hands in front of the muzzle of a gun at any time other than when holstered. That's why there is a rule that mentions sweeping while the gun is holstered. Then there is this rule under unsafe gun handling which clearly does not require you to handle the gun to be DQ'ed: 10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. Yes, if the competitor bumps the table, it is his responsibility because he is handling the gun - by way of moving the table. Placing mags is not handling the gun. Where does it describe that a gun is inert in the rule book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 You need the gun to be in your hand to be handling it. This statement is false, and your entire premise is completely wrong. If you pick up a gun with your elbows and drop it, you're still 'handling' it, and you will still be dq'd. If you are under make ready and you have set the gun down on the table, you are still 'handling' it, and if you muzzle yourself, you will be dq'd. Websters defines handling as the act of touching, feeling, holding, or moving something , No mention that you have to be doing it with your hands. Of course if the wind blows something over, that is not you doing the touching, feeling, holding or moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) You need the gun to be in your hand to be handling it. This statement is false, and your entire premise is completely wrong. If you pick up a gun with your elbows and drop it, you're still 'handling' it, and you will still be dq'd. If you are under make ready and you have set the gun down on the table, you are still 'handling' it, and if you muzzle yourself, you will be dq'd. Websters defines handling as the act of touching, feeling, holding, or moving something , No mention that you have to be doing it with your hands. Of course if the wind blows something over, that is not you doing the touching, feeling, holding or moving. OK - doesn't have to be your "hand". As long as you are not handling it... If you are putting the gun down on the table and you "muzzle" yourself, you are still handling the gun...are you not? And yes, that would be a DQ. Edited July 8, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 to add to the discussion... There was a case where it was a table start and you started standing away from the table...i don't remember how far, but it's a few steps to get to the table to retrieve the gun. While the competitor was at the start position, a gust of wind blew the table over, resulting in the gun being on the ground. Some people thought it should be a DQ due to dropped gun. Final decision was that it is NOT a DQ because the competitor was not "handling" the gun. no - I don't know the exact name and place or time...I think it was brought up during an RO or CRO class... IMO. Has nothing to do with "NOT a DQ because the competitor was not "handling" the gun. You can't hold a competitior responsible or DQ for range equipment failue. The wind blew over the table and the competitor was in compliance with the WSB. If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided: 10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and 10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and 10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and 10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) to add to the discussion... There was a case where it was a table start and you started standing away from the table...i don't remember how far, but it's a few steps to get to the table to retrieve the gun. While the competitor was at the start position, a gust of wind blew the table over, resulting in the gun being on the ground. Some people thought it should be a DQ due to dropped gun. Final decision was that it is NOT a DQ because the competitor was not "handling" the gun. no - I don't know the exact name and place or time...I think it was brought up during an RO or CRO class... IMO. Has nothing to do with "NOT a DQ because the competitor was not "handling" the gun. You can't hold a competitior responsible or DQ for range equipment failue. The wind blew over the table and the competitor was in compliance with the WSB. If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided: 10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and 10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and 10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and 10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or If you want to bring that up...the competitor did not "intentionally" place the gun on the ground, did he??? that's why the discussion was that it was a dropped gun... The ruling did not rule that it was NOT a DQ because he "placed the gun on the ground". The discussion was whether he dropped the gun provision of 10.5.3. Sub-rules 10.5.3.1-6 did not play a part since he did not place the gun on the ground. Edited July 8, 2014 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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