New to 3 gun - how to improve my game plan for stages

[Malcolm31]

I am new to 3 gun and action shooting sports in general. I would like to get better at reading stages...like how to come up with a game plan for the stage, when to change mags/reload my shotgun, figuring out where the best place is to stop and shoot from, how to keep from skipping targets as I move thru a stage, good ways to practice stages at home with dry fire, etc.

I'm sure it gets easier with more practice, watching faster shooters move thru stages, and going to more matches.....but any tips for things I can do now to improve would be greatly appreciated.

[KelsonAK]

Skipping targets? Never happens...

I'm not a super squad shooter, but one thing I've picked up... if you have to get there - get there.

[Zooligan]

To paraphrase the greatest sports psychologist of all time, "Be the bullet, Malcolm..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWH811TcckU

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'm sure it gets easier with practice, watching faster shooters

.....but any tips would be greatly appreciated.

You're right. It takes practice.

And watching better shooters - talk to them also - most shooters will

be happy to discuss what they're planning on doing, and why.

Their approach may NOT be Your best approach - depends on your shooting

skills level.

A & M shooters will attempt more difficult shots than you, or be able

to hit 1-2 targets while waiting for steel to fall, etc.

You can try it - it does force you to get better - but if it's not in

the cards for your current ability - put it on a back shelf until you

have acquired the skills necessary to shoot multiple or difficult

targets with confidence.

Best way to prepare is to practice dry firing, reloading, trigger

control and shooting while moving - NOT "stopping and shooting".

Hope this does NOT help you beat me if we ever shoot against one

another.

[MarkCO]

Shoot the rifle accurate, the pistol fast, load the shotgun, stages in chunks.

Unlike the other shooting sports where there are prescriptions for most things, 3Gun is less so. Sure, you have to have the fundamentals down, but the stage plans will change based on your equipment, skill level and the match. It is really like mixing 6 types of shooting all together. Some matches are drag races, some are enduros and some are more like road races. Then you get matches that mix elements of choice, precision, drag race throughout the stages.

As for actual stage planning, there are some really smart guys who break down every position, candy cane their loads and have complicated stage plans they really develop fully. Others can not do that, so their stage plans are more akin to knowing their 4 or 5 positions, or areas, and every time they move, they are loading.

What you will find is that watching the shooters who have more experience than you, who have a similar style, and beat you by maybe 10 to 15% is where you will make gains. It takes some skill in and of itself to watch the top shooters and be able to extract the elements of their stage plans that you can execute with 100% confidence. Trying to copy the stage plan of a top 30 shooter in 3Gun has a higher disaster factor than trying to copy the stage plan of a top GM in say USPSA pistol. Sure there are stages where there is only one way to shoot it, and the top guys just do it faster.

Some basic metrics you need to know...

How much time and how many steps do you need to reload your pistol, rifle, 4 shotshells, 8 shotshells. At what distance do you start to throw misses with your 100% throttle trigger speed...on paper, steel, etc. What is the difference in time shooting a target at 25 yards versus waiting until you can shoot it at 10 yards? Have to know zeros and offsets on rifle, patterns and slug zeros with shotgun.

[TVpresspass]

Watching the experienced guys definitely helps a lot. It's easy to zone-out when other people are shooting, but you can get a lot out of it if you actually observe what they're doing and how.

I try to watch as many as possible, and repeat the order of key points in my head, so that when it comes time to shoot, you know you're plan inside and out.

As a beginner, I really want to eliminate choice from my run. Any time that I have to decide "should I do this now? Or that?" I slow down. If I know what is supposed to come next, that helps me a lot.

Edited July 2, 2014 by TVpresspass

[Malcolm31]

Awesome. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Good tips. I also find that I tend to slow down if I have to think about my next step and "should I do this now", especially if the target can be engaged with the pistol or rifle/shotgun, etc. I'm working on coming up with a plan for the stage based on my current ability and sticking to it.

I find if I miss a target by going to fast, etc. it throws off my plan and I tend to slow down as well. I guess I need to work on not missing. Also, if the club/match permits extra shots on a paper target....what are your thoughts on taking another shot to get an A if one of my shots lands in the C or D?

Mark - I like that quote: "shoot the rifle accurate, the pistol fast, load the shotgun, stages in chunks." I'm also going to spend some more time figuring out how much time and how many steps my reloads take.

Thanks again.

[Doug S]

At a match, ask the experienced shooters how they are going to shoot it and how you should shoot it. I guarantee they will tell you! They are not afraid of you beating them and they want you to get better, I speak from experience. Kurt M and Trapr S. are awesome teachers, and have given me lots of tips while they beat me!

Doug

[alma]

Maybe get a bit more specific about what element of stage planning you most want to discuss first made dynamics of 3 gun are intense any you could easily write a book in response to your initial question.

Most matches now score time only so as long and you have at least 1 A or 2 hits anywhere else then don't worry about making any shots up.

To start with on stages planning know exactly where all of the targets are and exactly where you will be shooting each one from and with which gun. Don't worry as much about shooting on the move at first but definitely look for opportunities to reload while moving from one position to another. Take some time to shoot your rifle at distance and learn how fast you can comfortably put two on paper out to 75 yards or so. Then get comfortable with making for first shot count on targets at 100, 200, and 300 depending of course on what is typical at your matches. If the match rules allow then buy a couple of 40 round PMAGs and some Taran Tactical or TacCom 5/6 round extensions for them and that will get you out of having to reload rifle on most stages.

Your shotgun is a mysterious beast so takes some time to understand how it patterns with different loads and chokes at different distances. Know which combination you will need to take down steel plates and poppers at different distances. Knowing how to hit out to 100 yards with slugs is a must as well. If you quad load then knowing all of the multiples of 4 from memory will also come in handy. If you don't quad load then learn.

[sarge863]

I have the luxury of being friends with two 3 gun nation pros in my town. Basically the advice i have received is the first time you look at a stage you walk it and know how many targets you have. You then go back and start to figure out how YOU are going to shoot it. I like the advice Mark gave, trying to copy a pros plan usually can lead to disaster. As you go through the walkthrough some more you start to figure out how you want to engage the targets, where your reloads are, what shooting position you want, etc. your last walkthrough should be at a quick pace. When you are simulating shooting targets on your walkthrough don't just hold your hands up, "see" those two shots hitting the target. The most important part is next, go someplace away from everybody else and run the stage plan YOU designed in your head several times. See those targets you saw yourself shooting in the walkthrough and hit those those reloads asyou run it through in your head. Know it completely. When the buzzer goes off you will run YOUR stage plan efficiently and your times will show it. Hope that helps

[MarkCO]

Another thing one of the top shooters told me a while ago goes something like this (Maybe KurtM, PatrickK, ?? ):

The only time to shoot at 100% speed is during practice. In matches, you should be at 95% or so of your speed. You still move your feet at 100% when you are not shooting though. If you are at 100% (there is no such thing as 110% BTW) you are on the knife edge and sometimes, you will fall of it on the wrong side which is a train wreck.

I have been trying to couple that with this:

At Nationals last year, I kind of had a breakthrough...I was doing stage walk-throughs at GM speeds, but I would never shoot that fast. When I watched Eric G. set up stage plans, his last 2 walk-throughs were almost exactly at his actual shooting speed, and he took the exact number of steps in the same cadence as when he shot it live. If he made a mistake during walk-through, he would stop, go back to the start and reprogram it.

If you let your sights tell you as soon as you have an acceptable sight picture and break the shot, and do everything else as FAST as possible, it should get you pretty far. I think that mental gear switch between shooting in your speed zone and then hauling butt when you are not shooting is a huge difference between the 50-60% shooters and the 90%+ shooters.

[Malcolm31]

Wow...awesome advice and tips. I really appreciate it.

Sarge and others - when you walk the stage for the first time and count how many targets there are ....how do you specifically keep track of the number of targets? X number per shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc.? do you count two per rifle/pistol target? Do you initially just count the total and then figure out when you will reload, etc.?

I guess one of my biggest hurdles is planning when the stage is big and involves lots of targets, transitions, etc. (thanks for the advice - I will start asking some of the more competitive shooters for tips on stage planning while at matches) I find I can quickly come up with a plan for small stages with fewer targets/transitions and have it down in my head when the buzzer goes off. The bigger stages I find myself planning one piece or just the beginning really well but struggling with planning the middle or end of the stage. I've been trying to break stages into chunks, but those big stages are just giving me some trouble. I'm sure it will get better with some more practices and matches, but I guess I just want to go fast now....haha.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

[alma]

Most of the stages well have a written stage briefing that includes target counts. Start with that and walk through counting the targets to just make sure that you know where each and every one is at. From there I think you do gp to that strategy of breaking up the stage into smaller chunks starting with breaking down by gun type. From there is go to be similar to breaking down a regular pistol stage as far as knowing exactly from where you will be taking each target and where your reloads will be. Shotgun certainly stands out a being one of the most challenging aspects of stage planning and shooting a 3 gun stage overall. Planning reloads and trying to avoid extra shots is difficult enough. Add chokes, effective distances of steel, shotgun reliability (or lack thereof) mixing in slugs, empty chamber reloads, etc. can be pretty overwhelming on their own. Quad loading has helped my confidence in shotgun stages quite a bit.

I think another real challenge with 3 gun stages really has two do with the potential for mental breakdown and fatigue. Frustrations and issues early on in a stage have the potential to mentally follow you throughout the entire stage affecting your performance throughout. This can especially be a problem on long stages that can be exhausting even if you are shooting well. You need to learn to execute on your various stages segments to the beat on your ability given the circumstances and then when you move to the next segment you need to do so with a clean mental slate. Don't try two make up time or get mad for whatever you may have just done, just follow your plan, see what you need to see for each shot, and then move to the next target.

[sarge863]

If you are at a major match with big stages you have to spend the time on Thursday and walk through all the stages and spend some real time on each one, taking notes on each one. Many people also video the stage on the phone talking about the stage as they walk through so they can review it later at the hotel. Trying to do this on match days for the first time when your squad gets to the stage would be much more difficult.

[MarkCO]

If you are at a major match with big stages you have to spend the time on Thursday and walk through all the stages and spend some real time on each one, taking notes on each one.

But, do not solidify a stage plan. Target positions, distances, etc. yes. If you start to program 10 stages, you are asking for some crashes.

I will go back to the first stage I shoot in the match and get it most of the way there and maybe a tad less on the 2nd stage. The stages I shoot the 2nd day, I barely look at. There is such a thing as TMI.

[racnsoonr]

I like to video the better shooters and learn from their runs later at home. If I can get a video of myself on the same stages, I can learn even more by comparison

Learning is one thing...retention is another

[ziebart]

Absolutely look at the written stage brief to see how many targets there are. You need to know this to ensure you don't skip one in the walkthrough. I prefer to count targets instead of rounds. Find where you can shoot targets from more than one location, decide which is best for you.

Shotgun I start with a count of 8 then count down as I "shoot" the targets in the walkthrough. Add back up when I reload.

Running it in your head with eyes closed is probably the best thing you can do. That will let you know if you have the stage programmed or not.

[Jadeslade]

A few years ago at Superstition Mountain Mystery 3 Gun there was a complicated rifle stage, a "memory" stage,if you will, that started rifle low ready and I think 14 targets, dump rifle and then go to the pistol around the corner and shoot 10 targets and steel or so. The hard part was that the rifle targets could be seen from multiple ports, but some were only visible from a single port. Lots of barrels in the matrix of the array. So after going over it and getting a plan, Mike Voigt and Taran Butler started going over this stage in detail, discussing all the possibilities, and coming up with a 5,5,1,3 plan for the ports. They got all the shooters coming up to see the stage to stand by targets, and we did, cause it's Mike and Taran, that's what you do. It took about 40 minutes and was extremely informative about thought process, mitigating the wasting of time, and making sure no reload was necessary, which is quite possible to do in a memory stage, because you end up shooting some targets twice. The point is that experience does help, ask if you need help, and that the entirety of a match is fun. Including getting there for walkthroughs on a Thursday or whatever.