Mike41 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Can you buy or build a 14.5" pinned comp. without having the extra permits (NFA)? If so how do go about this without breaking the law? Example: buy a 14.5" barrel and comp separately. Here is what I am thinking about so tell me if I can do this, I have a 18" 3gun now and would like to be able to swap between this upper and a 14.5" pinned comp. to shoot the short range matches without having to change anything but uppers. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Ace- Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Just build a 14.5" upper, have it pinned and then you can legally mount it on your lower. You should use an adjustable gas block as well, that way you can tune it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike41 Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Do I have to buy the barrell already pinned or can I buy separate and pin myself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djcantr Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 You can buy separately and pin yourself. Just can't put the unpinned 14.5" upper on a lower without a NFA stamp. Don't put it on the lower, no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoker Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I silver soldered mine.. Easy to do, just need a MAP torch and the right silver solder to meet ATF specs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) The ATF rules on this are quite specific, and if not done right you can either (1) be in violation, or (2) damage your barrel. The first step, which may seem obvious, is to make sure your chosen barrel, washer and brake, when assembled, will indeed exceed the required 16" minimum length. You can legally buy the barrel and brake separately, legally assemble them together temporarily for the purpose of checking the barrel length - insert a bolt carrier group, then drop a rod/dowel down the barrel until it hits the bolt face, mark it at exit hole of the brake, and then pull the rod and measure to the mark (must be at least 16"). Just be aware that you may NOT legally place this upper on a non-SBR lower (e.g. for test firing). Once you are confident your chosen barrel/washer/brake will meet the 16" requirement, there are only three ATF-approved methods for doing the permanent attachment: 1) Weld around the circumference of the brake/barrel (I believe at least 180 degrees). As this will be difficult, messy and likely damage/degrade your barrel, I do not recommend this approach. 2) Pin and weld. You drill a hole in the brake, then screw on the brake and drill through it part-way into the barrel. Now insert a "blind" steel pin (to stop the brake from being unscrewed), and weld over the pin to hold it in place. This is probably the easiest, cleanest and least risky solution, assuming you have someone to do the welding. 3) Silver solder (NOT soft/lead-tin solder). Typically you would buy a silver solder/flux paste, apply it under the brake during installation, then heat the brake/barrel with a gas torch to allow the silver solder to melt and flow. This is maybe the easiest DIY job, but is messy (barrel will get discolored) and risky (you sail close to the limits of the barrel's heat treatment). I would suggest you put the components together to ensure your preferred combo will be at least 16", then send it off to a specialist like ADCO to have the pin/weld job done. Should be inexpensive and quick. The other even easier solution is to go for a 16" barrel. Marginally less handy, but a lot less legal hassle. Edited June 30, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 StealthyBlagga, I ordered mine pinned from Rainier because I was a little ansty about the whole "constructive intent" thing, as I have no SBR lowers. Can you point to the ATF rules that allow self assembly without falling afoul of constructive intent? I am not doubting you, but if I decide to go DIY for another build I would like to have the right references on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 This is hearsay, but... I have heard of people addressing the constructive intent issue by having a pistol lower on hand, and removing all their rifle lowers from their premises during the build. I believe an unbuilt stripped lower can qualify as a pistol lower. Don't take my word on any of this though. Do your own due diligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulrick Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Like others have stated, I am no expert, I'm am not a lawyer, nor do I work for the ATF... so please don't take what I say as fact, this is only how I have interpreted the law, and what I have done... I have probably put together 50-60 uppers for friends and family over the last 2 years. Some were pistol uppers and one left my bench as a full on NFA MK18 upper for my next door neighbor who is a sherriff. (I am not an FFL btw) Also I live in CA where things are much different since AR pistols need to be built from 80% lowers. StealthyBlagga, I ordered mine pinned from Rainier because I was a little ansty about the whole "constructive intent" thing, as I have no SBR lowers. Can you point to the ATF rules that allow self assembly without falling afoul of constructive intent? I am not doubting you, but if I decide to go DIY for another build I would like to have the right references on hand. From what I have heard, there are no documented cases of anyone being charged with constructive intent for owning a the parts for an SBR upper. would I want to be the guinea pig... no... but as of yet there is no precedence. This is of course with AR's. I know there is at least one case of a guy getting arrested during a traffic stop who had a glock and the glock buttstock ( not assembled but both in the car) and did not own a tax stamp for a glock and did not have one pending. I am searching for the case now to reference but it is proving to be harder than I thought. This is hearsay, but...I have heard of people addressing the constructive intent issue by having a pistol lower on hand, and removing all their rifle lowers from their premises during the build. I believe an unbuilt stripped lower can qualify as a pistol lower.Don't take my word on any of this though. Do your own due diligence Depending on the state the pistol lower might need to be actually dedicated as a pistol. Here in CA, we can't just go buy a strpped lower and make a pistol due to the approved "safe" handgun roster here. All in all it would be very hard to prosecute a person for owning the parts without them first breaking the law in such a way that gun seizures and a warrant to search the premises are needed. At that point, Constructive Intent is probably the least of your concerns. So planning is needed, remember once you weld the comp/brake/FH there is no swapping gas blocks without drilling the weld out (if you pin and weld.) Buy the parts, put the washer, brake, gas block and bolt face on. Measure and make sure you are >16" and then assemble as others have stated above. I only pin and weld as heating the barrel up to >600 scares me a little. I would not attach the Upper receiver to the barrel until it has been welded and pinned without an SBR or pistol lower. However the parts in their total, are not illegal items, even together. The key legal term is "intent" and the prosecution would have to prove that you intended to not only build the parts into an upper, but also have the intent to put said upper on a non SBR lower. So basically what I am saying is that without a SBR or pistol lower, don't keep a built SBR upper kicking around in the safe. Again, don't take my words as legal advice or fact, I am not an expert. This is only my interpretation of the law and what I am comfortable doing. Edited July 1, 2014 by mulrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gcountry Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Yeah, California always has to be different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 What about Rockset instead of welding? You can't remove it without some period of time in water. Heat won't do it. I can melt a soldered comp off in less time than it takes to soften a Rockset bond in water...? Just curious. Pins can be drilled... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 What about Rockset instead of welding? You can't remove it without some period of time in water. Heat won't do it. I can melt a soldered comp off in less time than it takes to soften a Rockset bond in water...? Just curious. Pins can be drilled... Not approved, and not permanent. Rockset does not take impact well, so it can be removed with handtools and no water. Silver solder, welds and pins leave evidence, Rockset can be completely removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Thanks for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Has to be permanent. If you don't have the equipment or skill to do it yourself, I would send to ADCO. They do a nice job with pin and weld, plus their price and turn-around times are very reasonable. Don't forget to install the barrel nut and gas block before you permanently attach the muzzle device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Coming from a cheap-ass who said "I can do it myself", spend the money on ADCO. I think they charge around 60$. Its well worth it. After pinning and welding mine, I found out that my A2 sight base had been pinned crooked, not allowing enough gas to cycle. After cutting it off and installing a YHM clamp-on gas block, it now runs but is far from pretty. Filing the weld smooth was a huge pain. Its just a beataround gun so Im not worried, but if you want it to be right, utilize someone with the skills and equipment to do it right. All IMO, of course. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 You are also going to want to make sure that all the proper components for your hand guard are in place as well before you send it off or weld it on. I suggest a test build at home to make sure it all works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I have an SBR lower, so have been using it to get some rounds through my upper before locking it in with pin/weld. An SBR lower is inexpensive and a fun investment if you live in a free state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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