how much drop offset allowed in limited division?

[3djedi]

I couldn't find anything in the rulebook...... but I skimmed fairly quickly!

[3djedi]

ok I think I found the answer. The butt if the handgun must not be below the top of the belt.......But what part of the gun is considered the "butt"?

[Sarge]

The back of the magwell

[3djedi]

I've been using just a bladetech with stingray belt attachement on my safariland belt but I just bought one of those BOSS (ben stoeger) drop hanger. Its got a clamp type belt attachment for a 1.5" belt so it won't work with my safariland belt. However, I attached an ELS clip to the hanger and that seems to work pretty good. It feels odd having the gun sit that low so it will take a while to get used to.

Do most limited guys use a drop offset holster? I really haven't paid attention..lol.....The only ones I really noticed are people with speed rigs and 2011's......

[Rob01]

I don't see anything that limits the drop of a pistol in Limited. In Production and Single Stack here are rules about drop nd how far it can be from belt but not Limited. Look at Appendix D2 here

http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/Feb%202014%20Handgun%20Rules.pdf

All divisions the offset can't be more than 2" from the inner belt.

[ChuckS]

I don't see anything that limits the drop of a pistol in Limited. In Production and Single Stack here are rules about drop nd how far it can be from belt but not Limited. Look at Appendix D2 here

http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/Feb%202014%20Handgun%20Rules.pdf

All divisions the offset can't be more than 2" from the inner belt.

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

This rule is for all divisions unless overridden in appendix D.

Later,

Chuck

Edited June 29, 2014 by ChuckS

[Rob01]

Yup there it is. They should put that down in the Appendix D for a quick view for people like they do when mentioning the offset.

Dropping much below that rule would be pretty low for me. Mine feels low but the magwell is still about 1" above belt.

[Parallax3D]

I've seen people cited for this and forced to adjust their holster. It's kinda like the 2" rule. They may never check it, but when they do, you have to fix it.

[CHA-LEE]

Look at Appendix D2, Line item 12...... "Restriction on position of holster and other equipment" = "NO". The only holstered gun position limitation defined for Limited division is that the gun and mags must not be further AWAY from the inner belt than 2 inches. Other than that, you can do whatever you want.

I have seen several RO's try to "reprimand" Limited shooters for having their gun too low when compared to the top of the belt by leveraging rule 5.2.7.2. That to me is surprising because the rule it self tells them to use Appendix D for each gun division to determine the limitations, if any, that apply. Appendix D2, Line 12 clearly states that there are NO restrictions on the holster position. Look at Line 12 for Production and Single Stack. That is where the position restrictions are defined for those divisions. Open, Limited, Limited 10, and Revolver all have no restrictions on the position of the holster and thus the position requirement defined in rule 5.2.7.2 does not apply.

[3djedi]

Interesting....thanks!

[Sarge]

Look at Appendix D2, Line item 12...... "Restriction on position of holster and other equipment" = "NO". The only holstered gun position limitation defined for Limited division is that the gun and mags must not be further AWAY from the inner belt than 2 inches. Other than that, you can do whatever you want.

I have seen several RO's try to "reprimand" Limited shooters for having their gun too low when compared to the top of the belt by leveraging rule 5.2.7.2. That to me is surprising because the rule it self tells them to use Appendix D for each gun division to determine the limitations, if any, that apply. Appendix D2, Line 12 clearly states that there are NO restrictions on the holster position. Look at Line 12 for Production and Single Stack. That is where the position restrictions are defined for those divisions. Open, Limited, Limited 10, and Revolver all have no restrictions on the position of the holster and thus the position requirement defined in rule 5.2.7.2 does not apply.

Your interpretation is really stretching it. You have seen RO's "try" to reprimand? There is no reprimand. The shooter is instructed to fix their gear. I have seen RM's correct Open shooters on this on more than a few occasions. The Production app even states that dropped and offset holsters must satisfy 5272 so that tells me 5272 is the predominate rule for all divisions. There is even discussion on this rule and why it was implemented. It was implemented so as not to present "gunslinger" appearances in the sport. I guess this rule needs rewritten since I can see where it is easy to misinterpret.

[ChuckS]

Look at Appendix D2, Line item 12...... "Restriction on position of holster and other equipment" = "NO". The only holstered gun position limitation defined for Limited division is that the gun and mags must not be further AWAY from the inner belt than 2 inches. Other than that, you can do whatever you want.

I have seen several RO's try to "reprimand" Limited shooters for having their gun too low when compared to the top of the belt by leveraging rule 5.2.7.2. That to me is surprising because the rule it self tells them to use Appendix D for each gun division to determine the limitations, if any, that apply. Appendix D2, Line 12 clearly states that there are NO restrictions on the holster position. Look at Line 12 for Production and Single Stack. That is where the position restrictions are defined for those divisions. Open, Limited, Limited 10, and Revolver all have no restrictions on the position of the holster and thus the position requirement defined in rule 5.2.7.2 does not apply.

Here is the rule:

5.2.7 Competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing:

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated in Rule 5.2.8.

That rule sends you to Appendix D to look for some other guidance on where the holster positions the gun relative to the belt. 5.2.7.2 is the default rule and that is only overridden by D5-20. All other divisions default to 5.2.7.2 Remember, we are talking about the position of the gun relative to the belt, not the holster position!

Later,

Chuck

[pjb45]

That rule sends you to Appendix D to look for some other guidance on where the holster positions the gun relative to the belt.

I disagree with the wording of 'some other guidance.' It is clearly stated 'except as specified' which makes 5.2.7.2 subordinate to D5. The exception supersedes the rule. I am not sure if I clearly understood your position. I think CHA-LEE is correct.

There is no reprimand.

I suspect you are taking exception to his word reprimand. To me it conveyed the intent of an RO's meaning of the rule and informing the shooter of perceived problem, where the shooter engaged in a dialog that was not in support of the RO's intention.

Wordsmithing is always an interesting endeavor. I offer this observation as one who has wordsmith state proposed statutes, written policies and procedures. I had a great boss that would edit my material with "Ok, I see your intent, now lets see how it can be misinterpreted "

[ChuckS]

That rule sends you to Appendix D to look for some other guidance on where the holster positions the gun relative to the belt.

I disagree with the wording of 'some other guidance.' It is clearly stated 'except as specified' which makes 5.2.7.2 subordinate to D5. The exception supersedes the rule. I am not sure if I clearly understood your position. I think CHA-LEE is correct.

You are correct. The rule describes the gun position relative to the belt. It also says except as specified in Appendix D. Appendix D5-20 is the only place where the position of the gun relative to the belt is different than in 5.2.7.2.

This rule has nothing to do with holster position, only gun position. (BTW: I consider D5-20 "other guidance" )

Later,

Chuck

[Nik Habicht]

It's really simple -- heel of gun below belt = you not getting started on the stage. End of story, unless an RM decides something different.....

[ChuckS]

It's really simple -- heel of gun below belt = you not getting started on the stage. End of story, unless an RM decides something different.....

What fun is simple???

[pjb45]

I love it when I am wrong.

As I reread the rules, the holster can be almost anywhere just as long as the butt of the gun is at belt level.

[Parallax3D]

Look at Appendix D2, Line item 12...... "Restriction on position of holster and other equipment" = "NO". The only holstered gun position limitation defined for Limited division is that the gun and mags must not be further AWAY from the inner belt than 2 inches. Other than that, you can do whatever you want.

I have seen several RO's try to "reprimand" Limited shooters for having their gun too low when compared to the top of the belt by leveraging rule 5.2.7.2. That to me is surprising because the rule it self tells them to use Appendix D for each gun division to determine the limitations, if any, that apply. Appendix D2, Line 12 clearly states that there are NO restrictions on the holster position. Look at Line 12 for Production and Single Stack. That is where the position restrictions are defined for those divisions. Open, Limited, Limited 10, and Revolver all have no restrictions on the position of the holster and thus the position requirement defined in rule 5.2.7.2 does not apply.

Appendix D only describes how far forward or rearward on the belt you may have items. (Hence the "behind the hip bone" limit in Production and Single Stack.)

5.2.7.2 applies to EVERYONE!

Trust me, I have seen Ray Hirst call out people for this. Ray is an NROI instructor. I think he knows what he's talking about.

[CHA-LEE]

I guess I am wrong then. Wouldn't be the first time. I will ask NROI about this the next time I see them at a major match to see if I can get an official clarification.

[Parallax3D]

Trust me. 5.2.7.2 applies to everyone. I'm 99.9% sure on this.

It always goes like this: General rule applies unless overridden by a specific rule, such as the height of the holster for Single Stack, (front strap above belt instead of the backstrap, unless you're a lady.)

If you really want to, you can email John Amidon and ask him. director@nroi.org

Edited July 9, 2014 by Parallax3D

[Sarge]

If you really want to, you can email John Amidon and ask him. director@nroi.org

Nooo!!!!! No telling what kind of response you will get since he is short!