No Ammo In Safe Area?

[Vlad]

He is saying you WON"T have a choice. USPSA will pull you affiliation. It has been done more than once. You can't have special rules that non-local shooters don't know about.

Where do I go file a complaint about my own match, I so wish they would pull my affiliation at this point.

[Sarge]

I agree there should be no local rules imposed on a match. But as local rules go this one has very little impact on our game. I personally never go to a safety area with anything but my gun. I have seen guys rooting around for tools in their shooting bag and move loaded magazines around. By rights that's a DQ.

Not a DQ if the loaded mags are only moved around within their bag......

disagree that is handling ammo

Of course you disagree.....

Care to read the rule again?

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the ammunition, loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area.

No DQ per the underlines language in blue until the mag or speed loader comes out of their pocket, bag, or other retaining or storage device. It's the old two steps to the gun rule -- first you need to remove it, and that's the point where you're disqualified; second you need to get it into the gun. As long as it stays within the range bag, it's fine. The BOD specifically wrote the rule in this manner so someone could go digging through their bag for tools or parts, as long as they didn't remove mags or speed loaders. And the competitor can stack boxes of ammo on the safe table all day long -- but he should take care not to have one break open and spill loose ammo all over the place....

Removed because I realized there is no way I can compete with a moderator in the sarcasm department.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Sarge

[remoandiris]

I dunno, draw your own limit, but are you seriously suggesting you would rather not have a local club to shoot at then bother to leave your ammo a few feet behind when using the safe table?

If thats the case, well, I guess you are right, go right ahead and do that. Its not as if USPSA actually provides any sort of help to MDs to convince local clubs to play by USPSA's rules, you know? As someone who's been doing the MD thing for 8-10 years or so and who has to deal with club BoD's multiple times of year, I don't recall a SINGLE instance in which USPSA actually tried to help.

Lucky for us, we don't have to use any special local rules, so it isn't an issue, but if the club BoD suddenly decided that shooters couldn't have ammo on their body at the safe table are you suggesting I should just close down the match and tell people to take a long hike off a short pier?

Oh wait, my local club does have a rule, they require us to pick up our live rounds so the lawnmower dude doesn't have surprises. Thats not in the USPSA rule book, quick ... someone come yank our affiliation. Please, do it, I need an excuse to stop dealing with this crap.

Most of the time when I go to a safe area I have loaded mags in my mag pouches as allowed by USPSA rules. If someone told me I was DQd by local rule I would tell the RM to show me what rule in the book I violated. There isn't one. If the RM persisted, I'd ask for my match fee back, then leave and never return. I would advise the SC, AD and USPSA HQ of the local rules and let them deal with it as they saw fit.

Don't call it a USPSA match if the rules aren't followed. Call it USPSA-like, USPSA-ish, USPSA-so so, but don't call it USPSA.

I was the MD for my club for a few years and on my club's BOD for a few years, so don't whine to me about how friggin hard it is. BTDT. Either you do it because you love it, you do it because no one else will or you don't do it. I got tired of the bullshit and decided to stop. Now I just set up stages for the MD as well as shoot matches at other ranges. Those other ranges follow USPSA rules. If I find a USPSA match that fails to follow USPSA rules, see paragraph 1.

If you don't like dealing with the crap, then don't.

[Vlad]

Most of the time when I go to a safe area I have loaded mags in my mag pouches as allowed by USPSA rules. If someone told me I was DQd by local rule I would tell the RM to show me what rule in the book I violated. There isn't one. If the RM persisted, I'd ask for my match fee back, then leave and never return. I would advise the SC, AD and USPSA HQ of the local rules and let them deal with it as they saw fit.

Don't call it a USPSA match if the rules aren't followed. Call it USPSA-like, USPSA-ish, USPSA-so so, but don't call it USPSA.

I was the MD for my club for a few years and on my club's BOD for a few years, so don't whine to me about how friggin hard it is. BTDT. Either you do it because you love it, you do it because no one else will or you don't do it. I got tired of the bullshit and decided to stop. Now I just set up stages for the MD as well as shoot matches at other ranges. Those other ranges follow USPSA rules. If I find a USPSA match that fails to follow USPSA rules, see paragraph 1.

If you don't like dealing with the crap, then don't.

First of all why does anyone assume that a rule like this would be secret and a DQ would be the first time you heared of it? If I had to enforce such a rule I would certainly make sure it was mentioned during the shooters meeting at every match. I don't know where people shoot, but there seems to be this presumption that "non-local" shooters wouldn't know about it, and if someone sprung it on you mid match that'd be a valid concern, but if someone did that you wouldn't want to shoot there anyway.

And if I don't deal with crap and throw in the towels then there is one fewer match in the area and there is one club which will probably take a decade before it ever allows "action shooting" again given current makeup of the board.

I find it fascinating that people are so sure about how they would do things in unknown circumstances in other states and localities. Everyone assumes that the way the color of the sky is the same everywhere, and if it isn't well you can't call it the sky so GTFO.

There are 8mil people my state and exactly 3 ranges where we can shoot USPSA. Losing one would hurt and not hurt just us but it would probably in the long term harm USPSA as the high density areas of the country subcumb to idiotic laws, range rules that have to do with close by neighbours, clubs with 3000+ members having to have rules that small clubs elsewhere might not need to have, etc. We as shooters and specially as USPSA shooters have enough crap do deal with localy that the last thing we would need is USPSA (or USPSA rule fetishists) complain that being asked to leave their mags behind when using the safe table is not true USPSA and the clubs should have their affiliation withdrawn.

Let me give you a VERY concrete exemple of a place we were breaking the USPSA rules until this year. We have mag limits in my idiotic state. For some matches around here the clubs required us to not allow mags over the state limit. Oh no .. quick lets remove that clubs affilition because they are breaking USPSA rules.

I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Vlad

[remoandiris]

When do you have the shooters meeting? Is it immediately when someone walks in and signs up or is it just before shooting starts? How do competitors get ready for a match? They sign in, go to a bay and gear up, right? So if they walk to a safe area to unbag and holster with mags and Ranger Rick sees them, they get DQd. Your too late shooters meeting doesn't do them any good, does it?

Having nation-wide rules eliminates crap like that. If you post a sign at the sign in station with all the little local non-USPSA rules shooters have to follow at your USPSA-ish match, at least non-locals can see them as soon as they arrive.

I'm so glad I left your 8M population state when I did. The politics of that hole amazes me.

BTW, has your club asked for exemptions to the USPSA rules you're breaking or is that another USPSA rule your club is ignoring?

Edited June 22, 2014 by remoandiris

[fishsticks]

Most of the time when I go to a safe area I have loaded mags in my mag pouches as allowed by USPSA rules. If someone told me I was DQd by local rule I would tell the RM to show me what rule in the book I violated. There isn't one. If the RM persisted, I'd ask for my match fee back, then leave and never return. I would advise the SC, AD and USPSA HQ of the local rules and let them deal with it as they saw fit.

Don't call it a USPSA match if the rules aren't followed. Call it USPSA-like, USPSA-ish, USPSA-so so, but don't call it USPSA.

I was the MD for my club for a few years and on my club's BOD for a few years, so don't whine to me about how friggin hard it is. BTDT. Either you do it because you love it, you do it because no one else will or you don't do it. I got tired of the bullshit and decided to stop. Now I just set up stages for the MD as well as shoot matches at other ranges. Those other ranges follow USPSA rules. If I find a USPSA match that fails to follow USPSA rules, see paragraph 1.

If you don't like dealing with the crap, then don't.

First of all why does anyone assume that a rule like this would be secret and a DQ would be the first time you heared of it? If I had to enforce such a rule I would certainly make sure it was mentioned during the shooters meeting at every match. I don't know where people shoot, but there seems to be this presumption that "non-local" shooters wouldn't know about it, and if someone sprung it on you mid match that'd be a valid concern, but if someone did that you wouldn't want to shoot there anyway.

And if I don't deal with crap and throw in the towels then there is one fewer match in the area and there is one club which will probably take a decade before it ever allows "action shooting" again given current makeup of the board.

I find it fascinating that people are so sure about how they would do things in unknown circumstances in other states and localities. Everyone assumes that the way the color of the sky is the same everywhere, and if it isn't well you can't call it the sky so GTFO.

There are 8mil people my state and exactly 3 ranges where we can shoot USPSA. Losing one would hurt and not hurt just us but it would probably in the long term harm USPSA as the high density areas of the country subcumb to idiotic laws, range rules that have to do with close by neighbours, clubs with 3000+ members having to have rules that small clubs elsewhere might not need to have, etc. We as shooters and specially as USPSA shooters have enough crap do deal with localy that the last thing we would need is USPSA (or USPSA rule fetishists) complain that being asked to leave their mags behind when using the safe table is not true USPSA and the clubs should have their affiliation withdrawn.

Let me give you a VERY concrete exemple of a place we were breaking the USPSA rules until this year. We have mag limits in my idiotic state. For some matches around here the clubs required us to not allow mags over the state limit. Oh no .. quick lets remove that clubs affilition because they are breaking USPSA rules.

I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

Actually 3.3.1 covers the mag issue nicely, so that isn't in conflict with anything.

Like a poster above said, like it or not, the no local rules gives some consistency. You can shoot a match anywhere with some confidence you won't be DQ'd over something you didn't know.

[wgnoyes]

... Its not as if USPSA actually provides any sort of help to MDs to convince local clubs to play by USPSA's rules, you know? As someone who's been doing the MD thing for 8-10 years or so and who has to deal with club BoD's multiple times of year, I don't recall a SINGLE instance in which USPSA actually tried to help.

...

Oh wait, my local club does have a rule, they require us to pick up our live rounds so the lawnmower dude doesn't have surprises. Thats not in the USPSA rule book, quick ... someone come yank our affiliation. Please, do it, I need an excuse to stop dealing with this crap.

He is saying you WON"T have a choice. USPSA will pull you affiliation. It has been done more than once. You can't have special rules that non-local shooters don't know about.

Where do I go file a complaint about my own match, I so wish they would pull my affiliation at this point.

Oh man, if that's how you really feel, you're seriously burned out and need to step back and take a break for awhile. The quality of a club's matches can't help but suffer when a MD's attitude goes south. Chill out; give it over to someone else and just go shoot.

Edited June 22, 2014 by wgnoyes

[wgnoyes]

Let me give you a VERY concrete exemple of a place we were breaking the USPSA rules until this year. We have mag limits in my idiotic state. For some matches around here the clubs required us to not allow mags over the state limit. Oh no .. quick lets remove that clubs affilition because they are breaking USPSA rules.

I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

So don't offer open and limited at your match. Sucks, but you still have L10, prod, rev, and SS. We have whole Nationals oriented around combinations of those divisions.

[Nik Habicht]

When do you have the shooters meeting? Is it immediately when someone walks in and signs up or is it just before shooting starts? How do competitors get ready for a match? They sign in, go to a bay and gear up, right? So if they walk to a safe area to unbag and holster with mags and Ranger Rick sees them, they get DQd. Your too late shooters meeting doesn't do them any good, does it?

Having nation-wide rules eliminates crap like that. If you post a sign at the sign in station with all the little local non-USPSA rules shooters have to follow at your USPSA-ish match, at least non-locals can see them as soon as they arrive.

I'm so glad I left your 8M population state when I did. The politics of that hole amazes me.

BTW, has your club asked for exemptions to the USPSA rules you're breaking or is that another USPSA rule your club is ignoring?

I'm pretty sure that club's not breaking a single rule right now.......

And I'm not aware of any DQ or other penalty in the Mid-Atlantic Section for anyone "breaking a local rule.

I'm aware of some clubs that make requests, in the interests of being good neighbors -- but they're not presenting it as "Do this and you go home. Why? Local rule 1.x.x.y"

It's always nice to hear from folks who've left for sunnier shores, but who still think they are in a position to offer applicable advice, even though they are ignorant of the circumstances on the ground. Vlad cares deeply about the game, and about having it played according to the rules and principles USPSA laid out. He's done far more work to make matches happen in the last decade than most people I know -- certainly far more work than I've put in during my tenure.

[Nik Habicht]

Let me give you a VERY concrete exemple of a place we were breaking the USPSA rules until this year. We have mag limits in my idiotic state. For some matches around here the clubs required us to not allow mags over the state limit. Oh no .. quick lets remove that clubs affilition because they are breaking USPSA rules.

I swear sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

So don't offer open and limited at your match. Sucks, but you still have L10, prod, rev, and SS. We have whole Nationals oriented around combinations of those divisions.

It's not a problem anymore. Open and Limited are restricted to 15 rounds by state law -- and USPSA for the first time provided a rule that allows those divisions play with a capacity limit in NJ.....

[Vlad]

When do you have the shooters meeting? Is it immediately when someone walks in and signs up or is it just before shooting starts? How do competitors get ready for a match? They sign in, go to a bay and gear up, right? So if they walk to a safe area to unbag and holster with mags and Ranger Rick sees them, they get DQd. Your too late shooters meeting doesn't do them any good, does it?

Having nation-wide rules eliminates crap like that. If you post a sign at the sign in station with all the little local non-USPSA rules shooters have to follow at your USPSA-ish match, at least non-locals can see them as soon as they arrive.

BTW, has your club asked for exemptions to the USPSA rules you're breaking or is that another USPSA rule your club is ignoring?

First of all, where do you all shoot where the RM is going to DQ anyone for a club rule they didn't mention? Any MD/RM who does that must be suffering from a congenital iodine deficiency. Heck, any match director that doesn't remind shooters about it and even give them a pass on the first occurance probably also suffers from the same syndrome.

I'm all for nation wide rules, but you know what I've recently noticed? 3gun is growing faster then the weeds I call a lawn and I can't say I've shot two matches with the same rules. Magically it seems to work.

What exactly should I ask for an exemption for? I'm not aware of ignoring any rules.

Oh man, if that's how you really feel, you're seriously burned out and need to step back and take a break for awhile. The quality of a club's matches can't help but suffer when a MD's attitude goes south. Chill out; give it over to someone else and just go shoot.

I'm actually quite fine. I enjoy running matches, what I have lost my patience for is dealing with rule making bodies of various flavors and the notion that trying to keep the sport going in stupid places is somehow a massive offence to the magical spirit of the rules. Reading some of these threads I have a heavily accented german in my head doing a voiceover "You are not having zee fun zee right way. Du musst halt having zee fun and zee fun papers is revoked schnell!"

So don't offer open and limited at your match. Sucks, but you still have L10, prod, rev, and SS. We have whole Nationals oriented around combinations of those divisions.

Brilliant!! Lets not offer Limited or Open in California, New York, NJ, Colorado, Conneticut, Maryland, and whatever else. That's only about a third of the population of the country. For sure that will only grow the sport. Again the german voice in my head tells me the vee are having zee fun zee wrong way. Oh wait, it was divine inspirtation visited upon the BoD that has change that rule for this year not an actual need that has been around for decades. Maybe for those couple of decades we should have had less shooters, right?

Vlad cares deeply about the game, and about having it played according to the rules and principles USPSA laid out. He's done far more work to make matches happen in the last decade than most people I know -- certainly far more work than I've put in during my tenure.

And of course, as I'm making my german jokes, it is my german brother from another mother that comes to my defense

Speaking of which, Nik get your butt down to our neck of the woods soon, we are breaking all the rules and need zee discipline. Just gives us a heads up, we need to get our gimp masks polished and the zippers shinned

Edited June 22, 2014 by Vlad

[remoandiris]

When do you have the shooters meeting? Is it immediately when someone walks in and signs up or is it just before shooting starts? How do competitors get ready for a match? They sign in, go to a bay and gear up, right? So if they walk to a safe area to unbag and holster with mags and Ranger Rick sees them, they get DQd. Your too late shooters meeting doesn't do them any good, does it?

Having nation-wide rules eliminates crap like that. If you post a sign at the sign in station with all the little local non-USPSA rules shooters have to follow at your USPSA-ish match, at least non-locals can see them as soon as they arrive.

I'm so glad I left your 8M population state when I did. The politics of that hole amazes me.

BTW, has your club asked for exemptions to the USPSA rules you're breaking or is that another USPSA rule your club is ignoring?

I'm pretty sure that club's not breaking a single rule right now.......

And I'm not aware of any DQ or other penalty in the Mid-Atlantic Section for anyone "breaking a local rule.

I'm aware of some clubs that make requests, in the interests of being good neighbors -- but they're not presenting it as "Do this and you go home. Why? Local rule 1.x.x.y"

It's always nice to hear from folks who've left for sunnier shores, but who still think they are in a position to offer applicable advice, even though they are ignorant of the circumstances on the ground. Vlad cares deeply about the game, and about having it played according to the rules and principles USPSA laid out. He's done far more work to make matches happen in the last decade than most people I know -- certainly far more work than I've put in during my tenure.

Don't presume I am ignorant of the circumstances on the ground simply because I do not shoot at the particular range. I have been round and round with my local BOD over USPSA rules versus club rules. The current MD and I told them if they don't want USPSA matches held at the club, just say so and we'll shut down. Like Vlad, it would give me and the handful of others who setup and run the matches more time to play then we currently have.

According to Vlad a range he knows of a range that doesn't allow loaded mags on your belt in a safe area during USPSA matches. That is a direct contradiction to USPSA rules. He didn't say it was a suggestion, as you put it. He said it was a local rule. If it is a suggestion, fine. If it is a DQable offense, not so fine.

[remoandiris]

When do you have the shooters meeting? Is it immediately when someone walks in and signs up or is it just before shooting starts? How do competitors get ready for a match? They sign in, go to a bay and gear up, right? So if they walk to a safe area to unbag and holster with mags and Ranger Rick sees them, they get DQd. Your too late shooters meeting doesn't do them any good, does it?

Having nation-wide rules eliminates crap like that. If you post a sign at the sign in station with all the little local non-USPSA rules shooters have to follow at your USPSA-ish match, at least non-locals can see them as soon as they arrive.

BTW, has your club asked for exemptions to the USPSA rules you're breaking or is that another USPSA rule your club is ignoring?

First of all, where do you all shoot where the RM is going to DQ anyone for a club rule they didn't mention? Any MD/RM who does that must be suffering from a congenital iodine deficiency. Heck, any match director that doesn't remind shooters about it and even give them a pass on the first occurance probably also suffers from the same syndrome.

I'm all for nation wide rules, but you know what I've recently noticed? 3gun is growing faster then the weeds I call a lawn and I can't say I've shot two matches with the same rules. Magically it seems to work.

What exactly should I ask for an exemption for? I'm not aware of ignoring any rules.

You're the one talking about advising competitors of local rules at a shooters meeting. Well what does the unsuspecting guest competitor do when the violate they local rule while gearing up? Or did you miss that part of my query? Or do you believe match rules start once the shooters meeting is over?

You're the one claiming hosting property owners can make up their own rules an USPSA has to follow them, not me. You're also the one who equates a local requirement to pick up loaded rounds, something USPSA is silent on, with not being allowed to have loaded mags on the belt in a safe area, something USPSA already addresses.

Edited June 22, 2014 by remoandiris

[alma]

When do you have the shooters meeting? Is it immediately when someone walks in and signs up or is it just before shooting starts? How do competitors get ready for a match? They sign in, go to a bay and gear up, right? So if they walk to a safe area to unbag and holster with mags and Ranger Rick sees them, they get DQd. Your too late shooters meeting doesn't do them any good, does it?

Having nation-wide rules eliminates crap like that. If you post a sign at the sign in station with all the little local non-USPSA rules shooters have to follow at your USPSA-ish match, at least non-locals can see them as soon as they arrive.

I'm so glad I left your 8M population state when I did. The politics of that hole amazes me.

BTW, has your club asked for exemptions to the USPSA rules you're breaking or is that another USPSA rule your club is ignoring?

I'm pretty sure that club's not breaking a single rule right now.......

And I'm not aware of any DQ or other penalty in the Mid-Atlantic Section for anyone "breaking a local rule.

I'm aware of some clubs that make requests, in the interests of being good neighbors -- but they're not presenting it as "Do this and you go home. Why? Local rule 1.x.x.y"

It's always nice to hear from folks who've left for sunnier shores, but who still think they are in a position to offer applicable advice, even though they are ignorant of the circumstances on the ground. Vlad cares deeply about the game, and about having it played according to the rules and principles USPSA laid out. He's done far more work to make matches happen in the last decade than most people I know -- certainly far more work than I've put in during my tenure.

Don't presume I am ignorant of the circumstances on the ground simply because I do not shoot at the particular range. I have been round and round with my local BOD over USPSA rules versus club rules. The current MD and I told them if they don't want USPSA matches held at the club, just say so and we'll shut down. Like Vlad, it would give me and the handful of others who setup and run the matches more time to play then we currently have.

According to Vlad a range he knows of a range that doesn't allow loaded mags on your belt in a safe area during USPSA matches. That is a direct contradiction to USPSA rules. He didn't say it was a suggestion, as you put it. He said it was a local rule. If it is a suggestion, fine. If it is a DQable offense, not so fine.

I am curious what the purpose of the rule is anyway. Did this club haven't some specific problem or did the MD feel some need to go the extra mile with safe areas? I can't imagine that this makes competitors safer. Heck, if you want to be that way then why even allow competitor's to carry ammo around unless they are actually on the line ready to shoot? Why not have them bag after each stage too because who feels safe with all these people walking around wearing guns?

[Vlad]

According to Vlad a range he knows of a range that doesn't allow loaded mags on your belt in a safe area during USPSA matches.

I said what now? I love arguing with people, but it helps if we are quoting eachother correctly. Nowhere did I say such a thing. What I said (or implied, suggested, etc) was that if a club had such a rule imposed upon them by the range owner as a condition of their match I wouldn't fault them for going along with it.

You're the one talking about advising competitors of local rules at a shooters meeting. Well what does the unsuspecting guest competitor do when the violate they local rule while gearing up? Or did you miss that part of my query? Or do you believe match rules start once the shooters meeting is over?

I didn't ignore your query, I've addressed by making insinuations about the metal capacities of an MD that didn't make that pleanty clear or one that enforced such a rule upon unspecting visitor without a proper warning. As I'm neither a cretin nor an MD for such club, I'd suggest that my very first act, had I had to deal with this rule, would be to post giant signs in pink paint by the safe tables stating the policy. Then, if a unsuspecting visitor happened to gear up and miss the giant sign and I noticed it then I would kindly correct them, explain to them the situation, and go about running the match.

Again for some reason everyone assumes all MD's are some form brainless harpies who's primary worry is how to DQ shooters. Where the hell do you people shoot that this the first thing that comes to your mind?

You're the one claiming hosting property owners can make up their own rules an USPSA has to follow them, not me. You're also the one who equates a local requirement to pick up loaded rounds, something USPSA is silent on, with not being allowed to have loaded mags on the belt in a safe area, something USPSA already addresses.

Again, it helps if we are having the argument. Yep I certainly claim that property owners can make whatever rules they bloody want, seeing how it is their property. The argument I actually having is that declaring that USPSA can't possibly happen under those circumstances or that it would better off not happening at all then suffering under such gigantic intervention into the holly rules of USPSA is basically the same type of absolutist nonsense that you projecting on a theoretical MD that might try to run a match under these rules.

Yes, I think this is about as absurdly unimportant as picking up live rounds. As I'm not assuming massive levels of mental incapacitation as a-priori requirements for MDs and consequently not assuming that an MD in that situation wouldn't have ways to deal with obvious issues withouth being a massive dick to people willing to shoot there, I am forced to conclude it would be mostly a non-issue for anyone able and willing to think outside the box a bit, just like the rule about picking up rounds. Sure, USPSA has no rule about that, so someone who carries a USPSA rule book like a little red book containing all knowledge and wisdom might very well complain that he can not be required to pick up his live rounds.

What really really gets my goat is not a club having to work under those rules, what irks me is notion we are all better not having matches at all then dealing with occasional inbred rule making process of some club. That is the sort of narrow minded approach that sooner or later will result to people trying to make something happen ask themselves "Why bother, I have idiots on one side, and cretins on the other, we are all better off shooting some other discipline where people aren't so bound to artifical rules as to make a shibari master blush". It isn't as if we are talking about a something that in ANY way would change anything about the game itself, the shooting challange, or actual safety of the match.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Vlad

[remoandiris]

This is another place where you and I differ. You love arguing. I enjoy discussing and learning.

I learned that you clamp on another's post (#1) and imply that breaking rules is o.k. if the property owner wants to (#5). Then you somehow or other get the grand idea everyone thinks MDs are idiots (#40), amongst other things no one mentioned anywhere.

O.k., you win. For you it is better to shoot USPSA-like matches than none at all. K. Got it. Just don't call it USPSA unless it follows the rule book, not some property owner's idea. That is the real point. If the property owner wants USPSA matches, we have rules. If s/he wants something else, call them something else.

My bad for reading into what you wrote. You know of no place that DQs shooters for having mags on their belt, but you'd be o.k. with a local rule that does, regardless of USPSA's stance. Got it.

Peace. Love. Joy.

Edited June 23, 2014 by remoandiris

[wgnoyes]

So don't offer open and limited at your match. Sucks, but you still have L10, prod, rev, and SS. We have whole Nationals oriented around combinations of those divisions.

Brilliant!! Lets not offer Limited or Open in Californi--

Excuse me! Sorry I said anything!!

[Vlad]

I learned that you clamp on another's post (#1) and imply that breaking rules is o.k. if the property owner wants to (#5). Then you somehow or other get the grand idea everyone thinks MDs are idiots (#40), amongst other things no one mentioned anywhere.

I don't presume to know what you have learned, but I'f call what you stated above is being incorrect conclusions at best. I couldn't care less about post #1, I care about followup posts declaring that there is only a one true way to make something happen. I've repeatidly tried to explain how one can make this happen without the dire threat of DQs but somehow you seem to think everyone is a range nazi.

Apparently finding solution to your worries and problems is not an answer you were looking for.

Oh well. Carry on.

[Vlad]

Excuse me! Sorry I said anything!!

Sorry Bill, my frustration is getting the better of me, but I hope you understand my point, I don't think that telling a third of the country is a good idea

[Skydiver]

Let's say you are in a state where open carry is illegal, would a hosting club's "local rule" requiring the covering garment always be worn during the match irregardless whether you are the shooter or not be valid under 3.3?

Edited June 23, 2014 by Skydiver

[Nik Habicht]

Let's say you are in a state where open carry is illegal, would a hosting club's "local rule" requiring the covering garment always be worn during the match irregardless whether you are the shooter or not be valid under 3.3?

Restrictions on Open Carry would not apply on private property.........

Hence the question is moot......

[motosapiens]

Let's say you are in a state where open carry is illegal, would a hosting club's "local rule" requiring the covering garment always be worn during the match irregardless whether you are the shooter or not be valid under 3.3?

is there a state where open carry is illegal on private property?

[remoandiris]

I learned that you clamp on another's post (#1) and imply that breaking rules is o.k. if the property owner wants to (#5). Then you somehow or other get the grand idea everyone thinks MDs are idiots (#40), amongst other things no one mentioned anywhere.

I don't presume to know what you have learned, but I'f call what you stated above is being incorrect conclusions at best. I couldn't care less about post #1, I care about followup posts declaring that there is only a one true way to make something happen. I've repeatidly tried to explain how one can make this happen without the dire threat of DQs but somehow you seem to think everyone is a range nazi.

Apparently finding solution to your worries and problems is not an answer you were looking for.

Oh well. Carry on.

I stated what I learned so there is no requirement for you to presume. And where in the world do you get I think everyone is a range nazi? Your reading comprehension is worse than mine.

I have no worries or problems you are in any position to answer, save following USPSA rules instead of caving to some property owner who only wants USPSA while ignoring USPSA rules. But you've already stated you would be o.k. with following only some of the rulebook.

[ac4wordplay]

I'm a member of Tri-County. I have to wonder if we would have had more competition shooting friendly folks elected if they would have changed the voting process earlier than they did (i.e. mail vs. the old system where barely few people would show up to vote).

Sorry for thread hi-jack. IDPA competition and Law Enforcement range sessions are going on all the time at Tri-County. Guess how they reload a handgun?!?!? /end rant.

IDPA at TCGC requires competitors to be compliant with TCGC's "no muzzle over the berm" rule. Participants are repeatedly informed of this (new participant orientation, website registration, shooters' briefing, etc.). Lots of TCGC IDPA participants have been DQd for this reason, they understood, and they returned (almost all of them). Is it possible that on rare occasions an SO doesn't see (due to props, stage layout, or even poor positioning) a violation, and therefor doesn't call the DQ? Yes, but on the squads I've seen shoot it's impressively infrequent.

I've seen the LE sessions and I prefer to be elsewhere - their safety procedures and gun handling usually make me uncomfortable.

[Parallax3D]

I LOVE how some people are assuming that if you break the local rule, (no ammo in safe area, or whatever), that you're going to get DQ'd.

Obviously you can't be "DQ'd" unless it is against the USPSA rules, but that does not stop the hosting club from asking you to leave and not come back, as is their RIGHT! I really don't see much of an issue in asking competitors to not have ammo in the safe area. How do you give notice to everyone? You put up a sign that says "NO AMMO IN SAFE AREA!"