What would you do?

[Nimitz]

I just assumed it was like our local matches where several people on the squad take turns sharing the RO duties and there is not a designated RO for the squad or the match .... In that case are they ROs the whole match or just at the time they take the timer or scoresheet?

[remoandiris]

IMO it depends on the "culture" of the match. At our matches if you aren't holding the timer or clipboard, you are just another competitor.

The OP didn't say what level the match was. At every L II and above I've worked there are designated ROs for the main match. When the staff is shooting the day prior, the RO is the guy with the timer or clipboard. The rest are competitors until it is their turn to run competitors, then they become "official" ROs.

[Sarge]

I just assumed it was like our local matches where several people on the squad take turns sharing the RO duties and there is not a designated RO for the squad or the match .... In that case are they ROs the whole match or just at the time they take the timer or scoresheet?

What works for us here near as I can tell: I assign RO's to squads and I consider them to be match staff all day and the only ones to stop shooters, issue DQ, whatever. The exception being MAJOR safety issues like somebody showing up on a berm or a shooter who takes a gun out of the holster for a table start etc while the RO is downrange scoring targets etc...., then of course anybody can call stop in my opinion.

Other than that I don't like a whole squad of chiefs and no indians.

[motosapiens]

You can do it in the safe area or with an RO but not elsewhere.

You are still handling the gun even if it is still in the holster.

I know what the rule says. I just don't know why it says that.

You are still handling a bagged gun even if it is in a bag too. What's the difference between handling a bagged gun and handling a holstered gun? Anyone old enough to know the history behind this rule?

I think it was a response to what was discussed in this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9429&p=109089

(Boy, there are some posters who have not been around for a long time in that thread!)

Later,

Chuck

Wow, thanks chuck, that was extremely fascinating. I particularly noted this bit:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or holster (see Rule 10.5.1).

apparently nowadays, the holster has to be securely fixed to your belt tho. Very interesting to get some historical insight into some of the possible background for a rule that seems a little curious to a newbie. thanks again for chasing down that educational old thread.

[Nik Habicht]

Understood that it's against the rules, but why is it against the rules? Most other dq-able offenses seem to be pretty obviously unsafe. I'm not so sure about this one. Was there a history of people wandering around leaving their guns unattended in the past?

The concern is guns getting pointed at other competitors......

A blaster in a bikini holster being carried horizontally looks a lot like a (handheld) gun being pointed at you, esp. at a distance......

Add in the often minimal holster retention, and it increases the odds of a dropped gun as well.....

[Nik Habicht]

Why is this so unsafe that it should be a dq?

USPSA tends to approach safety rules from the perspective of "Is this the safest we can make the rules, while allowing the game to be played?" When the answer is no, things get tightened up....

[Nik Habicht]

Here's what the rules looked like in 2004:

5.2 Holsters and Other Competitor Equipment
5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a
safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command
of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns
unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or holster (see Rule 10.5.1).
5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an
empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be decocked.
Violation will incur a warning for the first occurrence but
will be subject to Section 10.6 for subsequent occurrences in the
same match.
US5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an
empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be decocked.
Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately
escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area
where appropriate corrective action shall be made.
5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt
carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at
waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently
fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three
belt loops.

[newboy]

I would dq myself and leave, and have done so in the past. Whether I got "caught" or not is irrelevant.

[ktm300]

How many times have you been watching a shooter on a stage and you see them DQ but the RO with the timer and clipboard miss it. Do you yell stop or hold your breath?

[Sarge]

How many times have you been watching a shooter on a stage and you see them DQ but the RO with the timer and clipboard miss it. Do you yell stop or hold your breath?

If I'm in the peanut gallery I say nothing unless I see somebody on a berm or some other outside influence. Locals probably tend to be a little different but around here most of the guys are good RO's and keep quiet as well. Now, after the run, I might try to hook the RM up with the RO if it was blatant miscall but if it was just an out of position RO that missed something, well that happens to us all on occasion....

If you are at a major match and yell stop from the peanut gallery the shooter is going to get a reshoot. Plus it's a good way to cheat, by calling stop on a buddy having a terrible run.

Not match staff? Keep quiet.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sarge

[Sarge]

I would dq myself and leave, and have done so in the past. Whether I got "caught" or not is irrelevant.

Why not DQ yourself and hang around to help the squad shoot the match?

[frankie]

Are you an RO? If so, DQ him. If he constests he can take it up with the MD. If you're not an RO and none of the RO's there want to do anything about it report it to the RM/MD. If nobody does anything, you now know the caliber of the people you are shooting with. A seasoned shooter at the clubs I shoot at would have been DQd on the spot if they didn't DQ themselves. Also at my clubs, excepting an active shooter/RO/Score Keeper, anyone that's an RO can DQ anyone if they see a safety violation.

-Jake

Are you an RO? If so, DQ him. If he constests he can take it up with the MD. If you're not an RO and none of the RO's there want to do anything about it report it to the RM/MD. If nobody does anything, you now know the caliber of the people you are shooting with. A seasoned shooter at the clubs I shoot at would have been DQd on the spot if they didn't DQ themselves. Also at my clubs, excepting an active shooter/RO/Score Keeper, anyone that's an RO can DQ anyone if they see a safety violation.

-Jake

[frankie]

Just because you have an R O card doesn't mean you are an RO at said match

[ktm300]

How many times have you been watching a shooter on a stage and you see them DQ but the RO with the timer and clipboard miss it. Do you yell stop or hold your breath?

If I'm in the peanut gallery I say nothing unless I see somebody on a berm or some other outside influence. Locals probably tend to be a little different but around here most of the guys are good RO's and keep quiet as well. Now, after the run, I might try to hook the RM up with the RO if it was blatant miscall but if it was just an out of position RO that missed something, well that happens to us all on occasion....

If you are at a major match and yell stop from the peanut gallery the shooter is going to get a reshoot. Plus it's a good way to cheat, by calling stop on a buddy having a terrible run.

Not match staff? Keep quiet.

Ding Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

Recently we had a guy show up to our local match with his gun in his holster attached to his belt and his belt in his hand. Had someone walk up and politely asked him to step over the the safe table to fix the issue. Turned out to be a good guy that had never shot a USPSA match. He got the whole new shooter briefing. He turns out to be a pretty safe shooter.

[ktm300]

Oh yes, if we are at a match I am working he gets a trip to get some ice cream.

[JohnRodriguez]

several years ago I was shooting at the area 2 desert classic. I went over to one of the safe areas to scrub my cylinder when I found a much younger shooter loading mags in the safe area. I asked him if he could read the sign that was directly in front of him. after he popped his eyes back in I told him to go load his mags on the tables behind us. I was a certified RO at the time, but I was not a recognized RO for that match, so it was not my place to DQ him.

If I am working the match, I would DQ him, and show him in the rule book why it was done, and hope that he learned from it.

[exmr2sw]

He should have been DQ'd. Any intelligent person (especially an R/O) would properly go to the safety table (without ammo of course) lay his pistol on the table and then could take his belt off as needed to adjust his shirt or whatever. Put belt back on, re-holster at the safety table and you are back in business. Besides, there is usually a safety table in most stage bay's.

[mjohn]

What is the definition of "under direct supervision of an RO" and when doses it apply?

If I am an RO and either working or not working the match and walking with someone between stages, and the person requests to take his or her gun belt off, would that be legal?

[motosapiens]

What is the definition of "under direct supervision of an RO" and when doses it apply?

If I am an RO and either working or not working the match and walking with someone between stages, and the person requests to take his or her gun belt off, would that be legal?

This is only my opinion, but at a local match, I would consider any certified RO appropriate supervision, however I wouldn't let someone just take off their belt anywhere, we'd go into an empty bay and face downrange. At a sanctioned match, it would have to be a real designated RO for the match.

But the best practice is just to go to a safety area, remove the gun, do what you have to do (without handling ammo), put the gun back and get back to business.