Is this magazine placement legal ?

[MarkCO]

Kudos to the OP for asking, and wanting to follow the rules. We need more like you.

[Sarge]

Legality would depend on whether the mag was still there after the start signal.

If you load from the mag before the start signal, you're fine. Have the mag there AFTER the start signal, then 5.2.4 WOULD apply. Wedging the mag between two others is NOT a legal retention device.

In the situtation that the OP described, it would NOT be legal, since it was an unloaded start. Any mags after the start signal must come from either a retention device on the belt, or from table, etc. as described in the WSB.

Also from legal apparel pockets.

And technically a mag can be in an illegal place during the course of fire. You just can't use it

Nope!

5.2.4 says they SHALL be CARRIED in a retention device (or clothing pocket.) Since that is NOT a retention device, (wedged between two other mags is not a retention device), it would not be legal, even if you DIDN'T use the mag.

Tlking about pockets only. Clearly the wedgie thing is illegal.

from farther down in 524:

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed

loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the

restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed from

the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the

command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”.

[alma]

That is just saying that in Production or Single Stack that you can put your charger magazine in your front pocket without penalty as long as you don't mess with it.

There is another provisions that talks to them legality of retrieving mags from a pocket during the courses of fire. It is legal provided the pocket location is in like with division specific magazine pouch placement restrictions.

[Sarge]

That is just saying that in Production or Single Stack that you can put your charger magazine in your front pocket without penalty as long as you don't mess with it.

There is another provisions that talks to them legality of retrieving mags from a pocket during the courses of fire. It is legal provided the pocket location is in like with division specific magazine pouch placement restrictions.

Although the rule uses that as an example that is not only what the rule pertains to. You can carry a mag in your front pocket as long as you don't use it in the COF to reload the gun. The rule is pretty clear as long as you don't read into it and form opinions of what it means and which mags it pertains to etc.

I mean, I literally just copied the rule and pasted it and it is pretty clear.

[alma]

Right, and you can use a magazine from your front pocket during a stage if you are shooting any division but Production and Single Stack.

[twodownzero]

Legality would depend on whether the mag was still there after the start signal.

If you load from the mag before the start signal, you're fine. Have the mag there AFTER the start signal, then 5.2.4 WOULD apply. Wedging the mag between two others is NOT a legal retention device.

In the situtation that the OP described, it would NOT be legal, since it was an unloaded start. Any mags after the start signal must come from either a retention device on the belt, or from table, etc. as described in the WSB.

Also from legal apparel pockets.

And technically a mag can be in an illegal place during the course of fire. You just can't use it

Nope!

5.2.4 says they SHALL be CARRIED in a retention device (or clothing pocket.) Since that is NOT a retention device, (wedged between two other mags is not a retention device), it would not be legal, even if you DIDN'T use the mag.

But what's the penalty?

Even if something is a violation of the rules, it doesn't mean that there's a penalty attached. You'd have to find something in the rules that supports a penalty.

[fishsticks]

Legality would depend on whether the mag was still there after the start signal.

If you load from the mag before the start signal, you're fine. Have the mag there AFTER the start signal, then 5.2.4 WOULD apply. Wedging the mag between two others is NOT a legal retention device.

In the situtation that the OP described, it would NOT be legal, since it was an unloaded start. Any mags after the start signal must come from either a retention device on the belt, or from table, etc. as described in the WSB.

Also from legal apparel pockets.

And technically a mag can be in an illegal place during the course of fire. You just can't use it

Nope!

5.2.4 says they SHALL be CARRIED in a retention device (or clothing pocket.) Since that is NOT a retention device, (wedged between two other mags is not a retention device), it would not be legal, even if you DIDN'T use the mag.

But what's the penalty?

Even if something is a violation of the rules, it doesn't mean that there's a penalty attached. You'd have to find something in the rules that supports a penalty.

6.2.5.1 addresses the penalty does it not? (Bump to open for failure to comply with division requirements).

[Parallax3D]

But what's the penalty?

Even if something is a violation of the rules, it doesn't mean that there's a penalty attached. You'd have to find something in the rules that supports a penalty.

As an RO, I would not start the competitor until they fixed the violation.

It's not like SS or PROD, where they have restrictions on holster and mag locations, (which would bump you to Open.)

Same goes for things like the holster and mag pouches being within 2" of the inner belt. (Something that is the same for all divisions.) No penalty, you just have to fix it.

I remember a case of Ray Hisrt from PASA calling out shooters because the top of their backstrap was below the top of the belt. Against the rules, so they had to fix it.

I suppose if a shooter refused to fix an issue like this, or did it repeadedly after being told not to. you COULD DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. Is THAT good enough of a penalty?

Edited May 28, 2014 by Parallax3D

[Parallax3D]

6.2.5.1 addresses the penalty does it not? (Bump to open for failure to comply with division requirements).

No, 5.2.4 is not a division requirement, that's a general requirement for ALL divisions.

See above. ^^^

Edited May 28, 2014 by Parallax3D

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

But what's the penalty?

Even if something is a violation of the rules, it doesn't mean that there's a penalty attached. You'd have to find something in the rules that supports a penalty.

As an RO, I would not start the competitor until they fixed the violation.

It's not like SS or PROD, where they have restrictions on holster and mag locations, (which would bump you to Open.)

Same goes for things like the holster and mag pouches being within 2" of the inner belt. (Something that is the same for all divisions.) No penalty, you just have to fix it.

I remember a case of Ray Hisrt from PASA calling out shooters because the top of their backstrap was below the top of the belt. Against the rules, so they had to fix it.

I suppose if a shooter refused to fix an issue like this, or did it repeadedly after being told not to. you COULD DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. Is THAT good enough of a penalty?

If they refuse to fix it, the RO should not start the shooter. If the shooter is not started, squad finishes the stage, shooter gets a no score.

[kcobean]

But what's the penalty?

Even if something is a violation of the rules, it doesn't mean that there's a penalty attached. You'd have to find something in the rules that supports a penalty.

As an RO, I would not start the competitor until they fixed the violation.

It's not like SS or PROD, where they have restrictions on holster and mag locations, (which would bump you to Open.)

Same goes for things like the holster and mag pouches being within 2" of the inner belt. (Something that is the same for all divisions.) No penalty, you just have to fix it.

I remember a case of Ray Hisrt from PASA calling out shooters because the top of their backstrap was below the top of the belt. Against the rules, so they had to fix it.

I suppose if a shooter refused to fix an issue like this, or did it repeadedly after being told not to. you COULD DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. Is THAT good enough of a penalty?

If they refuse to fix it, the RO should not start the shooter. If the shooter is not started, squad finishes the stage, shooter gets a no score.

This is the exact progression I would follow. The shooter is not compliant with the rules and needs to adjust their equipment to be compliant. I would not start them until they ARE compliant. If they refuse, I will issue an unload and show clear, score them a zero for the stage and call the RM or MD to deal with them. At that point, a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct is appropriate, IMO.

[cas]

In this particular case, I'd say the magazine retention device(s) are the magazines on either side ! After all, the magazine is obviously retained.

...specifically designed for .....

So the $40 Magnet mag holder from DAA is legal, but the same magnet from US magnetics at half the price isn't legal.

Edited May 30, 2014 by cas

[Parallax3D]

In this particular case, I'd say the magazine retention device(s) are the magazines on either side ! After all, the magazine is obviously retained.

...specifically designed for .....

So the $40 Magnet mag holder from DAA is legal, but the same magnet from US magnetics at half the price isn't legal.

I don't recall anywhere in the rules that states you must use a COMERCIALLY AVALABLE product, as long as it meets the rest of the equipment guidelines for your division. I know people who have made and used their own Kydex holsters and mag pouches.