Limited Pro .40 - load lengths

[ny32182]

I'm trying to get a new Limited Pro .40 (shooting minor) sorted out. If the gun is not super clean, I run into feed issues where the slide stops with the new round on the way into the chamber. It stops right as the rim is trying to slide under the extractor. The bullet is already halfway into the chamber.

So far I've tried the following:

Xtreme 180gr at 1.125" OAL

Montana Gold 180gr at 1.138" OAL (recommended by a friend who shoots this bullet/length all the time in his Limited)

Recoil spring is 9lb. I'd rather not go heavier since my intent is to shoot only minor. I have an 8lb that I tried with the same results.

I took the extractor out, and don't have any other extractors for comparison, but it is marked "40" and doesn't have any obvious burrs, or anything that I can see.

I have a couple new extractors on the way, but, any other guesses as to what might be going on? Thanks.

[MickB]

Load your rounds longer. If your mags don't have the spacer, then go as long as you need.

I had a Tanfoglio .40 that would constantly do this with standard length reloads.

Try 1.150" OAL and go up from there. You may need to go to 1.175" or so.

A side benefit is that loading longer will also reduce your case pressure a bit as well....

Mick

[ny32182]

I was wondering if loading longer would allow the bullet to contact the top of the chamber on the way in and keep it flatter against the breechface, thus allowing the rim to slide under the extractor easier. Is that the theory behind the longer load?

Can anyone recommend actual working lengths for the two bullets I mentioned? Eyeballing the two bullets (Xtreme and MG) the extreme is shorter, with a more abrupt ogive and larger flat area on the front. I assume this means that if the leade is the limiting factor on length, that the MGs can be loaded to a longer OAL and still fit. If the magazine is the limiting factor, the maybe both would have to be loaded to the same (longer) OAL?

Gun is a large frame US spec, mags are Mecgars with the spacer in the back.

[ny32182]

Looking at some older threads it looks like the max length the Mecgars will allow is 1.145"?

[MickB]

Correct on the theory. Go with 1.145" OAL and see if that works.

The ability to load longer OAL is why I prefer mags without the spacer.....

Mick

I was wondering if loading longer would allow the bullet to contact the top of the chamber on the way in and keep it flatter against the breechface, thus allowing the rim to slide under the extractor easier. Is that the theory behind the longer load?

Can anyone recommend actual working lengths for the two bullets I mentioned? Eyeballing the two bullets (Xtreme and MG) the extreme is shorter, with a more abrupt ogive and larger flat area on the front. I assume this means that if the leade is the limiting factor on length, that the MGs can be loaded to a longer OAL and still fit. If the magazine is the limiting factor, the maybe both would have to be loaded to the same (longer) OAL?

Gun is a large frame US spec, mags are Mecgars with the spacer in the back.

[Nealio]

Make sure you are crimping the bullets enough. Check the bottom edge of the breech face for burs/sharp edges.

[praetorian97]

How is your mag spring tension?

[AlphaSeeker]

I has a similar issue a couple of times with my 9mm.

Look at the inside edge of the chamber - it should be slightly beveled or rounded. Just a bit, to let the case mouth continue loading if it hits the edge.

My 40 has the edge smoothed and my 9mm is now loading no matter how dirty - just polish up the edge.

I removed the spacers from my 40sw mags and now load to 1.180. Big disappointment that they hold 14 not 15rds.

Nealio is right, make sure you are crimping to .421 or .420. Mine would stick a little at .424

[ny32182]

Thanks guys. Mags are brand new and the springs feel good.

I believe my crimp measurement is .421 or .422. But, I don't see how that could be the issue as the case mouth is not touching anything when the jam occurs.

I've loaded some rounds out longer, both bullets to 1.145 OAL and will test asap. They fit the mags, and hand cycling them in a safe direction, they do feel overall like they are loading smoother. Before, I could feel a "hitch" part way through the chambering sequence on every one that is not there at all with my 9mm.

One thing I've noticed hand cycling with a clean gun and the longer rounds, I get the jam now consistently only on the last round of the mag. This makes sense, since there is no bullet under the last one pushing the casehead further up. I did not do this exact test with the shorter rounds, but I guess I could since I still have a couple hundred of them left.

I also just got a couple new extractors I can try; one totally stock, and one hand polished on all surfaces.

Edited May 9, 2014 by ny32182

[Nealio]

What dies are you running?

[ny32182]

Hornady New Dimensions.

[Nealio]

I know a lot of people have had weird feeding issues that were solved by using a u-die.

I'm having a hard time picturing the failure you describe. Is the round nose-diving into the feed ramp?

Is this better or worse when the mag is full or empty?

My buddy ran .40 minor in his Stock II without issue running 1.13 OAL

[CHA-LEE]

When using Minor loads with light recoil springs the extractor shape, depth and spring tension needs to be precisely tuned.

(1) The bottom corner of the extractor hook (the first part that touches the brass rim as its being forced up under the extractor) needs to be slightly rounded. If the leading edge (bottom edge) of the extractor hook has pointy or sharp edge it will dig into the brass instead of allowing the rim to slip up under the extractor hook.

(2) The depth of the extractor needs to be tuned so the extractor hook is pushing the rim of the brass into the opposite side of the breach face. Basically the extractor hook should be pinching the rim of the case into the side of the breach face under spring tension. This is easily tested by inserting an empty case into the breach face area and observing the extractor is deflected outwards slightly as you push the empty case up into the "chambered" position. You only want a very minimal amount of extractor deflection when inserting the empty case. If the extractor deflects a lot as you push the empty case into the chambered position then the depth of the extractor is set too deep. If the extractor does not deflect as you push the empty case into the chamber then the depth of the extractor is set too shallow.

(3) The stock extractor spring should be your first option to use for minor loads and reduced power recoil springs. If you use an extra power extractor spring it may require too much force for the rim of the brass to push the extractor out of the way so it can move up to the chambered position.

[ny32182]

Nealio, one of these?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/687452/lee-u-carbide-small-base-sizing-die-40-s-and-w

I shot 150 rounds of 1.145" ammo through the gun today (gun started perfectly clean) and had one FTFeed part way through (just like all the others). It does not seem to matter where in the magazine the round is. Seems to happen a lot less when the gun is perfectly clean. I don't think I put enough rounds through today to see if the longer rounds help when the gun is a little dirty.

Cha lee, thanks for the post...I was originally thinking extractor, but came off of that a little bit after some of the other threads, but now it seems like you are saying the extractor might be a factor after all. My gunsmith sent an extractor with all the surfaces polished. I don't know that any of the angles have been changed. Do you think this is likely to help? I have not installed it yet. Extractor spring is stock. All I have to do to get a jammed round to feed is jiggle the slide just enough to let the case head come just a little further up the breech face under the extractor, then it goes the rest of the way into battery. Recoil spring is currently a 9lb. Just smacking the back of the slide does not seem to do it, the slide has to be pushed ever so slightly back to loosen up the rim/extractor interface to get it to feed.

Potential options as I see them moving forward, taking into account all the feedback:

1) Get a 10mm magazine and see if loading longer OAL helps

2) Change the extractor for one with polished surfaces

3) U die?

4) Some sort of irreversible work to open up the feed ramp area?

[Nealio]

Yes that's the one.

How many rounds are through this gun?

[ny32182]

Now a total of 1020 rounds through the gun.

[ny32182]

Maybe if I'm thinking about the dimensions correctly, the issue would be less if the body of the case was every so slightly smaller. Maybe worth trying the U die.

[CHA-LEE]

The description of your issue sounds exactly like an extractor issue to me. Look at my #1 & #2 items listed above. I can't answer your question about the quality of the extractor your gunsmith worked on. Just because someone "Polished" it does not mean that it is tuned properly.

[ny32182]

Picture of malf.... I'm checking out the extractor now. Taking the slide off and sliding a loaded round under the extractor by hand, it does hold the loaded round against the breach face by itself, no problem. It does not slide freely under the extractor, it has to be pushed. The case is pushed into the opposite side of the slide by the extractor.

I'm thinking of trying a heavier recoil spring as well (currently 9lb) to see if it would "push" through this malf a little more often?

[ny32182]

I imagine all the ideas that might be able to be put forth online probably have been done already, but I'll keep updating this thread with my trials and progress, and hopefully eventually I'll come to a solution and this can benefit someone else.

I was attempting some detailed observations while slowly hand cycling rounds through both guns yesterday (other gun being my 9mm Stock 2). I found that extractor tension between the 9 and 40 seems to be exactly the same (observed while pushing rounds under the extractor by hand with the slide off the gun). I still have the original stock, unmodified extractor in the .40. Three things I notice about the 9mm, which feeds perfectly:

1) The cartridge is moving a longer distance out of the magazine before any contact on the feed ramp, so this might mean it has a bit more speed by the time the rim is going under the extractor. A 10mm magazine might help with this... with no spacer in the back I should be able to seat the rounds further back in the magazine.

2) The 9mm seems more inline with the chamber already, it is not elevated as much by the feed ramp on the way into the chamber as the .40. Nothing I can think to do about this.

3) The magazine does not seem to release the round as fast in the .40. By that I mean there is a point in time where the round snaps up the breachface under the extractor when the magazine lets it all the way out. This seems to happen later with the .40, and if it happened earlier the nose would not be so far elevated compared to the casehead and it might feed up the breachface better. I'd rather not "tune the magazines" if I can avoid it.... and if it doesn't work I've probably ruined a $30 magazine.

[ny32182]

Also, my 10mm magazine got here yesterday. Probably not news for most, but, the external dimensions are the same, just without the spacer in the back, and it seats and ejects in the frame just fine; my Stegger basepads fit, It also locks the slide open, and cycles .40 rounds by hand just fine. I see some potentially encouraging signs:

1) Obvious... I can load as long as I want.

2) The feed lips are SIGNIFICANTLY shorter. The round will pop out of the magazine a lot sooner in the travel. Hand cycling will only tell you so much obviously, but this "might" be a solution that addresses observation #3 in the prior post, and might potentially allow feeding of shorter loaded rounds.

3) without the spacer in the back it looks like the round is going to be moving for a longer period of time, and maybe then have more momentum by the time it hits the feed ramp. Maybe. The slide will be catching it sooner in its travel, therefore won't have as much momentum when it picks up the round, so this item might be a wash...

[dhf]

NY, I load 40 minor with 180gn sns cast coated flat point, 3.2gn's of titegroup and a length of 1.135. Makes around a 135pf out of my Stock 2, next time I load I might back them down to 3.0 and see how they feel. But the stock 2 feels real nice at a 135pf now so...

Don't know if it'll help but just the other day I was burning of some junk 40 minor loads I made last year, they were way to light, and had jambs that look just like what your showing. I questioned if the slide was coming back full stroke so that it had enough power to strip and seat the round under the extractor and go into battery. I guess you could call it short stroking, the slide came back far enough to pick up the round but doesn't have enough to spring tension to get it under the extractor.

I run regular 40 mags with Steoger pads.

Do you use a Lee Factory Crimp die? If not I would highly recommend one!

What kind of fps or pf is your load making?

Nealio, whats a u-die??

Edited May 21, 2014 by dhf

[AlphaSeeker]

I have been testing 40 minor loads in the S3. Extreme plated FP 200gr, 4.0gr SR7625 688fps 137pf 1.155 COL - no feeding problems running 8lb recoil spring 16lb hammer spring and Xtreme firing pin.

Removed the spacer from the mags and can now load 1.20 - will be testing those in minor and major.

[BeerBaron]

NY, I load 40 minor with 180gn sns cast coated flat point, 3.2gn's of titegroup and a length of 1.135. Makes around a 135pf out of my Stock 2, next time I load I might back them down to 3.0 and see how they feel. But the stock 2 feels real nice at a 135pf now so...

Don't know if it'll help but just the other day I was burning of some junk 40 minor loads I made last year, they were way to light, and had jambs that look just like what your showing. I questioned if the slide was coming back full stroke so that it had enough power to strip and seat the round under the extractor and go into battery. I guess you could call it short stroking, the slide came back far enough to pick up the round but doesn't have enough to spring tension to get it under the extractor.

I run regular 40 mags with Steoger pads.

Do you use a Lee Factory Crimp die? If not I would highly recommend one!

What kind of fps or pf is your load making?

Nealio, whats a u-die??

u-die is an 'undersized' sizing die made by lee. it's slightly smaller than the normal sizing die in that calibre. personally I think they are a bit of a bandaid but many have had great success with them. doing what you are doing (using the factory crimp die which post-sizes and crimps the round) is the way to go in my opinion. if you aren't having problems, stick with that set-up.

[ny32182]

Thanks dhf.

Well I might be getting more and more stumped. I shot 170 rounds of mostly my SHORTEST ammo yesterday (1.125", loaded too many at first and just needed to burn them). Zero malfunctions while actually shooting, using mostly the .40 magazines. Granted the gun started clean, but I was expecting a minimum of one malfunction and likely more based on past experience. I did have a couple of the jams during "load and make ready", cycling a round in by hand.

I had the 10mm magazine mixed in, and zero malfunctions of any kind with it. I think my next step might be to get the gun dirty, keep it dirty for a while, load some rounds beyond the 1.145 max that will fit the .40 mag, shoot them in the 10mm magazine, and see what happens? Maybe my extractor is getting some more natural wear on it.